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Why Does My Remote Control Need to Know My Location?

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Re: Why Does My Remote Control Need to Know My Location?

#21

Post by lazyjones »

derriz wrote: post #13

At least they acknowledged it, responded to the feedback and fixed it. Unfortunately I have a Sonos system which became effectively bricked unless I signed a new user agreement allowing the collection of data. There are no physical controls on Sonos so the system becomes useless without accepting. They used to sell dedicated controllers/remotes years ago but these were also bricked as part of an upgrade about a year…

Sounds like lawmakers need to enforce warnings labels on such products: „works only with sensitive data collection“ or similar.

Re: Why Does My Remote Control Need to Know My Location?

#22

Post by jfnixon »

codetrotter wrote: post #12

> Google, in its wisdom, has tied "Location" into things like BLE Scanning and WiFi scanning. The excuse is that you can use these things as a proxy for location. That is, if I know you are near access point X your location is probably near Y. It’s not an “excuse”, it’s a fact. If you allow an app to scan SSIDs you are allowing it to know your location. No amount of sarcasm on the part of OP is going to change that.

Um, no, that's not correct. SSIDs aren't tied to geographic location. The mothership might infer location by looking at the list of SSIDs and checking it against a geotagged list compiled by a mapper, but that's a completely different thing that saying if you let an app look for an SSID you are allowing to it to know your location. You might as well say that by giving a camera the ability to know the time, you are allowing it to know your location, as someone could look at the sun's shadows or weather and infer location.

Re: Why Does My Remote Control Need to Know My Location?

#23

Post by VLM »

phakding wrote: post #16

I think Google is the culprit here. Not just for wifi scanning, but also for Bluetooth, Google demands location permissions. In last 5 years or so, I have had a Garmin, a Fitbit and now a Garmin watch. I never used to have to enable location with my first Garmin tracker untill I upgraded Android os. After that point onward all my fitness trackers now ask to enable location in order to connect to my phone.

My charge3 (basically, the same as a charge2 but truly waterproof) connects to my phone when I enter a "Walking" exercise and it uses the GPS data to plot my route AND to optimize my average step length distance. They do sell trackers with embedded GPS (that eat battery life, as you'd imagine)

I'm just saying fitness trackers have at least one legit reason. Unlike a remote control seemingly having no legit reason to scan local wifi.

Re: Why Does My Remote Control Need to Know My Location?

#24

Post by deadbunny »

elcomet wrote: post #20
codetrotter wrote: post #12

> Google, in its wisdom, has tied "Location" into things like BLE Scanning and WiFi scanning. The excuse is that you can use these things as a proxy for location. That is, if I know you are near access point X your location is probably near Y. It’s not an “excuse”, it’s a fact. If you allow an app to scan SSIDs you are allowing it to know your location. No amount of sarcasm on the part of OP is going to change that.

This is only true if they have access to a ssid database. This is very expensive to build, I guess Google has one, I think they don't give you directly access to it.

Or just use https://wigle.net

Re: Why Does My Remote Control Need to Know My Location?

#25

Post by conesus »

I designed and built a wooden remote control[1] so I know a bit about why this is.

My iOS app asks the user for location permissions because without it the remote control app won't know when to attempt to connect when you walk in the door with your iPhone but your remote is sitting at home, waiting for you to hit it to turn on your lights or play music on your Sonos. If you hit the button and nothing happens, that's a horrible user experience!

I used to have location set to Always even though I don't store the location (and I'm explicit about that, even going so far as to open source the entire app ecosystem[2]) but then Apple pushed back and said that always having a location was against their ToS for remotes. I then switched to a geofence, which is still a location based permission but takes less battery life.

For Apple the tradeoff was not privacy but battery life. If I were to store your geofence information on my servers (which, ick) that would be OK as long as it was in teeny tiny text in my privacy policy. So while other remote control products are happy to take that information and sell it I decided to not double dip since you already pay once for the product. This is similar to my news reader which also has competitors that sell users' data. The tradeoff for me is that I earn a lot less than I theoretically could, but again, I don't double dip. Benefits of indie technology vs. venture-backed technology.

[1] Turn Touch: https://turntouch.com

[2] iOS source code: https://github.com/samuelclay/turntouch-ios

Re: Why Does My Remote Control Need to Know My Location?

#26

Post by mtgx »

codetrotter wrote: post #12

> Google, in its wisdom, has tied "Location" into things like BLE Scanning and WiFi scanning. The excuse is that you can use these things as a proxy for location. That is, if I know you are near access point X your location is probably near Y. It’s not an “excuse”, it’s a fact. If you allow an app to scan SSIDs you are allowing it to know your location. No amount of sarcasm on the part of OP is going to change that.

> Google, in its wisdom, has tied "Location" into things like BLE Scanning and WiFi scanning

That line implies Google made a "stupid mistake" here, when to me it seems like it was very much a calculated/malicious move.

Re: Why Does My Remote Control Need to Know My Location?

#27

Post by icebraining »

deadbunny wrote: post #24
elcomet wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is only true if they have access to a ssid database. This is very expensive to build, I guess Google has one, I think they don't give you directly access to it.

Or just use https://wigle.net

Or https://location.services.mozilla.com/ or one of the multiple paid APIs.

Re: Why Does My Remote Control Need to Know My Location?

#28

Post by close04 »

derriz wrote: post #13

At least they acknowledged it, responded to the feedback and fixed it. Unfortunately I have a Sonos system which became effectively bricked unless I signed a new user agreement allowing the collection of data. There are no physical controls on Sonos so the system becomes useless without accepting. They used to sell dedicated controllers/remotes years ago but these were also bricked as part of an upgrade about a year…

My Sonos system is by far the biggest slice in the “Blocked” pie chart of my PiHole dashboard. I have no idea how much dat still ends up on their servers because I didn’t bother to dig too deeply yet.

Next step is different VLAN with no internet access.

Re: Why Does My Remote Control Need to Know My Location?

#29

Post by ryanbrunner »

lazyjones wrote: post #21
derriz wrote: post #13

At least they acknowledged it, responded to the feedback and fixed it. Unfortunately I have a Sonos system which became effectively bricked unless I signed a new user agreement allowing the collection of data. There are no physical controls on Sonos so the system becomes useless without accepting. They used to sell dedicated controllers/remotes years ago but these were also bricked as part of an upgrade about a year…

Sounds like lawmakers need to enforce warnings labels on such products: „works only with sensitive data collection“ or similar.

This is worse, in a way - from what I can tell at the point of purchase the system didn't have the problematic data collection - that was added later in an update. Even a savvy consumer who researched which product to buy would be screwed in this circumstance.

It does seem to me that once a product is purchased, it ought to remain usable and supported under the terms it was purchased under, but that seems a long way from the current laws around user agreements.

Re: Why Does My Remote Control Need to Know My Location?

#30

Post by icebraining »

elcomet wrote: post #20
codetrotter wrote: post #12

> Google, in its wisdom, has tied "Location" into things like BLE Scanning and WiFi scanning. The excuse is that you can use these things as a proxy for location. That is, if I know you are near access point X your location is probably near Y. It’s not an “excuse”, it’s a fact. If you allow an app to scan SSIDs you are allowing it to know your location. No amount of sarcasm on the part of OP is going to change that.

This is only true if they have access to a ssid database. This is very expensive to build, I guess Google has one, I think they don't give you directly access to it.

They do: https://developers.google.com/maps/documentation/geolocation...
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