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Netherlands, Finland, Luxembourg, Poland and Italy Oppose EU Copyright Directive

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Re: Netherlands, Finland, Luxembourg, Poland and Italy Oppose EU Copyright Directive

#131

Post by eecc »

DubiousPusher wrote: post #16
citilife wrote: post #6

The issue I see with the EU, is that it's essentially centralizing all the "countries" into "states". Where by, each of the states will simply answer to the two countries with the most power. Namely Germany, followed by France. Personally, I think it's sad. It's as if we're watching the destruction of all the national identities. Only to be centralized by powers who are only interested in their own national identity.…

The pedestal contemporary people put national identity on is just that, contemporary. National identities didn't arise naturally. Many of them were very thoughtfully and intentionally invented. For most of human history, the idea that people over a geography the size of Engalnd would see themselves as one people would've been ridiculous. It's really only in the last 200-400 years that people have accepted the nation…

Mah, my take on the resurgence of Nationalism is that it is simply a reaction/struggle to Neoliberal Globalization.

Previous attempts at developing an international counterpoint to Neoliberals’ “End of History” have either fizzled on their own or were smashed apart (GenovaG8, World Social Forum, Occupy.)

The latest attempt at interpreting displeasure for TINA comes from the Right, which in Europe has meant rejecting the “Global Village”, unearthing very unpleasant forms of chauvinism and racist rhetoric, longing for a “gilded age” of Nations (where Countries and People - as in, homogeneous ethnic groups - identify.)

And the most recent - and counterproductive - development has been the disdainful elitism of the EU technocrats and their political supporters (in the last 10–20 years, the former gained a lot of respect and power at the expense of the latter.) They are literally shouting “There Is No Alternative to us and our policies, you stupid crowd of gullible populists!”

I can’t see this going anywhere good

Re: Netherlands, Finland, Luxembourg, Poland and Italy Oppose EU Copyright Directive

#132

Post by ptaipale »

ddebernardy wrote: post #65
ptaipale wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The detailed argumentation is made elsewhere, in a longer format. For a declaration, I think half page is just right. Happy with my government for doing this (but very unhappy with the union).

Save your being unhappy with the union for when the MEPs don't vote this down. Until then, be outraged at the lobbyists that nudged elected governments to support this, while keeping in mind that these elected governments' heads of state are the ones that nominate the head of the EC.

I am unhappy if the civil servants and the machinery of EU keeps preparing bad proposals, even if they are torpedoed by MEPs. This seems to be a constant case of pressure to which organisations then yield at some point.

Yes, both elected and unelected officials should be better at resisting lobbying.

Re: Netherlands, Finland, Luxembourg, Poland and Italy Oppose EU Copyright Directive

#133

Post by [deleted] »

dingaling wrote: post #50
pslam wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You win at right wing talking-points bingo. The whole point of the EU is that Europe is better when it's together. There were multiple wars, involving the death of many millions, and that's just the last hundred years. Independence is just dressed up nationalism, and all the ugly facets it is made of.

> There were multiple wars, involving the death of many millions, and that's just the last hundred years. Of which the EU has existed for just 27 years. For the 70 years of its existence NATO has been a strong bond and influence, with the exception of the Turkish invasion of Cyprus it has prevented violent conflict between its members. And it didn't require integration of forces; it published standards for commonalit…

[deleted]

Re: Netherlands, Finland, Luxembourg, Poland and Italy Oppose EU Copyright Directive

#134

Post by nec4b »

pslam wrote: post #13
citilife wrote: post #6

The issue I see with the EU, is that it's essentially centralizing all the "countries" into "states". Where by, each of the states will simply answer to the two countries with the most power. Namely Germany, followed by France. Personally, I think it's sad. It's as if we're watching the destruction of all the national identities. Only to be centralized by powers who are only interested in their own national identity.…

You win at right wing talking-points bingo. The whole point of the EU is that Europe is better when it's together. There were multiple wars, involving the death of many millions, and that's just the last hundred years. Independence is just dressed up nationalism, and all the ugly facets it is made of.

Pax Americana (NATO) is what is keeping Europe peaceful at the moment and not the EU. Europe had long periods of peace as well long periods of wars throughout its history.

Re: Netherlands, Finland, Luxembourg, Poland and Italy Oppose EU Copyright Directive

#135

Post by nec4b »

adrianN wrote: post #120
aikah wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The pedestal contemporary people put national identity on is just that, contemporary. As opposed to the pedestal people put supra national institutions such as the EU? Rome? Napoleon's Empire? all failed eventually. > National identities didn't arise naturally. Neither did the European Union. All societies are man made constructs, what your point? > It's only our contemporary bias that tells us that the subordinati…

Germany can be seen as a supranational entity. Until quite recently Germany was a bunch of almost independent states, reasonably similar to what the EU is now. So far increased integration seems to have worked out for Germany.

They all speak the same language and have the same culture and not at all similar to the EU.

Re: Netherlands, Finland, Luxembourg, Poland and Italy Oppose EU Copyright Directive

#136

Post by adrianN »

nec4b wrote: post #135
adrianN wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germany can be seen as a supranational entity. Until quite recently Germany was a bunch of almost independent states, reasonably similar to what the EU is now. So far increased integration seems to have worked out for Germany.

They all speak the same language and have the same culture and not at all similar to the EU.

Language in the EU is of course a problem, but I think you overestimate the cultural similarity between a Prussian and a Bavarian, or you underestimate the similarity between a German and a Frenchman.

Re: Netherlands, Finland, Luxembourg, Poland and Italy Oppose EU Copyright Directive

#137

Post by lawn »

AstralStorm wrote: post #129
lawn wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yes. And that includes the fact that the dumbfucks who think pi should equal three because bible says so also have more influence to the politicians at the level of Sweden than EU. With that line of thinking democracy is a failed concept and we should just abolish voting anyway. Because then dumbfucks don't get any influence. > I asked a question, why you think Sweden would be more optimal than EU and you basically…

So, you cannot vote for your MEP? As far as I know they're chosen from current parties by proportional representation. With a few exceptions. (Country dependent.) You (as Swedes, for instance) voted for those people. They are local national level politicians in an international setting, no different from any minister except for the stakes and reach. That other countries can exert some influence on yours? That is a fa…

> That other countries can exert some influence on yours? That is a fact of life and nothing will change it.

So we'll just accept anything? It's about limiting outside influence as much as possible. Not throwing your hands in the air and give up.

> Everything is an agreement, including EU, with relatively specific scope, agreed to because it is beneficial (or politically convenient) even if limiting at times.

It's always a trade-off. There are good parts and there are bad parts.

EU has morphed into something entirely different than what it was at the start.

> It is a better model than everyone keeping laws dictated by the US, Russia, Germany or France, or WIPO, Google or MPAA lobbyists, which it was before. (National standards get copied or are intentionally very similar.) You get to vote at least on the common choice, instead of the strongest one winning.

You don't solve the issue that laws are influenced by other forces by eroding your voting power. Then you only worsen the problem.

Re: Netherlands, Finland, Luxembourg, Poland and Italy Oppose EU Copyright Directive

#138

Post by mstade »

Mirioron wrote: post #109
mstade wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's interesting, I've found it much easier to get in touch with MEP representatives than it is to get in touch with national politicians, and MEPs have been much more responsive as well. Have you tried contacting any MPs, and/or MEPs, and what was your experience?

Okay, but let's say you convince all the MEPs in your small country. Now what? Are you going to start sending letters to MEPs from foreign countries? Why would they care about what you have to say?

They probably wouldn't, I'm not part of their constituency. But that's just how representative democracies work, MPs (or in the EU case MEPs) argue and vote on behalf of their constituency. I can of course try to sway MEPs of other countries, but they're far more likely to listen to "my" MEPs as it were – it's part of their job after all.

Re: Netherlands, Finland, Luxembourg, Poland and Italy Oppose EU Copyright Directive

#139

Post by mstade »

NeedMoreTea wrote: post #100
mstade wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a non-brit having lived in London for a few years my (mostly but not entirely tounge in cheek) take on it is that it seems pretty much all parts of England loathes every other part of England, to variying degrees; while all other parts of the kingdom also dislikes most of England, to varying degrees. The only thing that seems to unite the British, in my mind, is non-londoner's (and some londoner's too!) dislike fo…

You seem to be figuring us out quite well. Most of the inter regional loathing is a sort of benign, almost friendly loathing, until you look south or north(depending on starting point)... North-south divide is a little more real, if you see what I mean. Well, England unites for soccer, Scotland, with their own footie team, hopes for England to go out on penalties, as always. :) For things where there's a British rath…

Hah, yes. Wales too I suppose. I wonder – do people from Northern Ireland root for Ireland or England? I'm only half referring to soccer with that question. ;o)

Re: Netherlands, Finland, Luxembourg, Poland and Italy Oppose EU Copyright Directive

#140

Post by isostatic »

Mirioron wrote: post #106
isostatic wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm under the illusion I think that's brexit all over, illusion rather than substance. > it's easier to influence a Swedish politician than it is to influence an order of magnitude more foreign politicians, to get the same proportion of influence. Yes, and that's bad. A big benefit of the EU is it's harder to manipulate -- there's a lot more people to control -- at least 16 independent heads of governments and near…

> Yes, and that's bad. How is that bad? It's possible to change the law afterwards. With the EU it's basically impossible. Swedes would have to lobby politicians from a foreign country that they can't vote for nor can they speak the same language. That's terrible. > Copyright is clearly is one of those things that needs to be tackled at a level of government higher than the local town council, especially if you have…

Because when it's easier for you as an individual to change things, it's easier for Rupert Murdoch or Mark Zuckerberg to do it.

I assume Swedish MEPs speak Swedish, lobby them. I assume that the Swedish governemnt do to.

If the european population does not like a specific rule, then they lobby their MEPs and the Council members. You don't need to lobby Greek MEPs, Greeks do.

In the UK I can lobby my own local MP on Westminster matters, I can't lobby an MP in Cornwall though, I don't live there. People with the same views as me in Cornwall lobby their MPs, and those voices are therefore heard in parliament. I don't get to vote for 649 of the 650 MPs in Westminster.

The main "democratic deficit" in the EU is mainly as a result of neither the media nor the people taking it seriously. The information is there, but media outlets tend to have more people covering tiddlywinks than what happens in Brussels. This leads to apathy at best from the people, which leads to less coverage. It's an self-fueling antagonistic feedback loop.

The UK media loves to paint it as "unelected bureaucrats forcing the UK to do things". They don't paint Westminster as unelected bureaucrats forcing cornwall to do things. The problem there is that only 30% of us bothered to vote in 2014, and of those about 30% voted for people who simply claim the paycheck but refuse to actually do any work.

> But it has been protected on a higher level since the 19th century.

And the EU is a more democratic way of having these pan-national agreements set, discussed and changed. Some rules must apply at a global level, some can be set at a local level, some fall between - Trade, air travel, MRAs, Environmental issues, movement of goods, services, people and capital. The EU isn't unique in concept, NAFTA, EU, ASEAN, are all regional agreements covering various rules and laws.

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