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Netherlands, Finland, Luxembourg, Poland and Italy Oppose EU Copyright Directive

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Re: Netherlands, Finland, Luxembourg, Poland and Italy Oppose EU Copyright Directive

#71

Post by aikah »

Sammi wrote: post #69
aikah wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The pedestal contemporary people put national identity on is just that, contemporary. As opposed to the pedestal people put supra national institutions such as the EU? Rome? Napoleon's Empire? all failed eventually. > National identities didn't arise naturally. Neither did the European Union. All societies are man made constructs, what your point? > It's only our contemporary bias that tells us that the subordinati…

I think the parent comment is trying to make the point that nation state identity is equally as arbitrary and artificial as a continent identity. People like identifying with a group. It seems like an innate craving of humanity. I think we should learn to be careful not to be exploited for this craving. Whether it is a nation, the EU, a religion or a soccer team, one should be very very careful.

And my point is more power concentrated in the hand of fewer people only leads to the tyranny of a bureaucratic elite and less democracy.

> I think we should learn to be careful not to be exploited for this craving.

You mean "we shouldn't trust the people with their intelligence", that's how every elite thinks.

Well I hope someday there is enough democracy left for the people in Europe to undo the EU bureaucracy peacefully. For the record I was pro EEC.

Re: Netherlands, Finland, Luxembourg, Poland and Italy Oppose EU Copyright Directive

#72

Post by vanderZwan »

DelightOne wrote: post #70
vanderZwan wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Think of it like an interface and an implementation in programming.

With a good interface you do not have to know the implementation. But the implementations here are leaking hard since everybody can and does implement the directive differently, so you can't deal with the interface but you rather have to deal with each implementation separately! So sadly no interface at all.

Actually, the analogy does apply in the general to way the EU works, and your explanation is the exact opposite of how it usually works.

The general rule of thumb is "as long as you meet the EU criteria, your product/service/etc is legal in all EU states", removing the need for figuring out red tape for each individual country. So if you have, say, a perfume that you want to sell, then as long as you follow the EU restrictions for which ingredients you are and are not allowed to use you should have access to the entire EU market. Before the EU existed you would have to find out the legal restrictions for each country separately.

Contrary to its reputation, when it comes to international markets the EU has saved companies tons of money in terms of administration due to reducing red tape.

Re: Netherlands, Finland, Luxembourg, Poland and Italy Oppose EU Copyright Directive

#73

Post by [deleted] »

Tuna-Fish wrote: post #68
isostatic wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of the listed countries, 6 of the 8 - Netherlands, Finland, Luxembourg, Sweden, Estonia and Denmark - are all 1 constituency countries, so the MEPs represent the entire country MEPs may well decide different things to the government though, just as the U.S. House could have a different view to the Senate.

Proportional representation. The MEPs don't represent the entire country, they represent the specific people who voted for them. The fundamental principle of who people represent under PR is very different from FPTP. Under FTPT, the people living in a certain area vote for a "winner", who then represents the entire area. If 51% of the people vote for candidate A, and 49% vote for candidate B, then the wishes of 49% o…

[deleted]

Re: Netherlands, Finland, Luxembourg, Poland and Italy Oppose EU Copyright Directive

#74

Post by ameister14 »

Tuna-Fish wrote: post #68
isostatic wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of the listed countries, 6 of the 8 - Netherlands, Finland, Luxembourg, Sweden, Estonia and Denmark - are all 1 constituency countries, so the MEPs represent the entire country MEPs may well decide different things to the government though, just as the U.S. House could have a different view to the Senate.

Proportional representation. The MEPs don't represent the entire country, they represent the specific people who voted for them. The fundamental principle of who people represent under PR is very different from FPTP. Under FTPT, the people living in a certain area vote for a "winner", who then represents the entire area. If 51% of the people vote for candidate A, and 49% vote for candidate B, then the wishes of 49% o…

So I vote for a party in the EU as a whole, and if enough people in my country or other countries do too, some candidate from some country gets elected?

Re: Netherlands, Finland, Luxembourg, Poland and Italy Oppose EU Copyright Directive

#75

Post by iknowstuff »

DelightOne wrote: post #11
Someone wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directive_on_Copyright_in_the_... : ”At this point, the text will be reviewed by the European Parliament Committee on Legal Affairs, and then presented to the full European Parliament for a vote. Should the vote succeed, then each of the EU's member states have up to 24 months to introduce laws within their own countries to support the Directive.” So, this is a statement “we believe the…

> introduce laws within their own countries to support the Directive. Why so complicated? It seems a bad idea to have 28 different laws which generally say the same thing but with possibly small differences so it gets a minefield. No wonder EU is a difficult market. Who possibly thought that's a good idea?

The GDPR was a regulation - a type of EU law which immediately applies uniformly in every member state.

This proposal is different because it is a Copyright "Directive" - directives leave the implementation details up to the member states. If a court rules a particular member state's implementation to be in violation of the directive, the directive's wording has the supremacy and overrides the local law. Still, this leaves some leeway for member states. They may choose different approaches to reach a common EU goal, or more lax/stricter punishments provided that the directive allows for that.

Re: Netherlands, Finland, Luxembourg, Poland and Italy Oppose EU Copyright Directive

#76

Post by petre »

KozmoNau7 wrote: post #42
yeahforsureman wrote: post #17

What the hell, where's Sweden and Denmark? Or the much-hyped E-stonia? (Not that it would've made a difference.)

Unfortunately, the majority of parties in Denmark have a real hard-on for this copyright directive. Either from a belief that it will protect the artists, or from a "law and order" perspective that this will finally stick it those eeeeeevil pirates by giving even more power to the rights holders, in an attempt to completely abolish fair use doctrines. The ramifications if this directive passes are absolutely disastro…

Yup, it's the same in my country. I'm going to specifically vote for an independent MP who was against this directive. I won't try to contact the others and explain anything because it doesn't work. Some party MPs have a split view on the issue and it's risky to vote for a party because you never know who they send to the EP.

Re: Netherlands, Finland, Luxembourg, Poland and Italy Oppose EU Copyright Directive

#78

Post by petre »

citilife wrote: post #6

The issue I see with the EU, is that it's essentially centralizing all the "countries" into "states". Where by, each of the states will simply answer to the two countries with the most power. Namely Germany, followed by France. Personally, I think it's sad. It's as if we're watching the destruction of all the national identities. Only to be centralized by powers who are only interested in their own national identity.…

I do not think the EU surpresses national identity but I have a problem with how the decisional process is influenced by special interests in two countries.

Re: Netherlands, Finland, Luxembourg, Poland and Italy Oppose EU Copyright Directive

#79

Post by walterstucco »

aikah wrote: post #71
Sammi wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the parent comment is trying to make the point that nation state identity is equally as arbitrary and artificial as a continent identity. People like identifying with a group. It seems like an innate craving of humanity. I think we should learn to be careful not to be exploited for this craving. Whether it is a nation, the EU, a religion or a soccer team, one should be very very careful.

And my point is more power concentrated in the hand of fewer people only leads to the tyranny of a bureaucratic elite and less democracy. > I think we should learn to be careful not to be exploited for this craving. You mean "we shouldn't trust the people with their intelligence", that's how every elite thinks. Well I hope someday there is enough democracy left for the people in Europe to undo the EU bureaucracy peac…

Élite vs the people is a very boring debate

I don't know who invented it or why it keeps popping up, but it's stupid

Re: Netherlands, Finland, Luxembourg, Poland and Italy Oppose EU Copyright Directive

#80

Post by anoncake »

citilife wrote: post #6

The issue I see with the EU, is that it's essentially centralizing all the "countries" into "states". Where by, each of the states will simply answer to the two countries with the most power. Namely Germany, followed by France. Personally, I think it's sad. It's as if we're watching the destruction of all the national identities. Only to be centralized by powers who are only interested in their own national identity.…

> The issue I see with the EU, is that it's essentially centralizing all the "countries" into "states".

> It's as if we're watching the destruction of all the national identities.

You don't live in a federation, do you?

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