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Toxic Workers Are More Productive, But the Price Is High

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Re: Toxic Workers Are More Productive, But the Price Is High

#171
I'm beginning to notice a trend with these kind of organizational pop psychology pieces. There is usually (especially in this piece) a bias towards overvaluing the risk contribution of an individual and a devaluing of the risk contribution and ownership of the leadership structure.

This piece is, to borrow a term, "not even wrong." There's no proof that "toxic workers" are more productive. By all accounts, toxic workers come in all shapes and sizes -- and what is a toxic worker, really? Is it someone who is physically and psychologically harmful to everyone in their lives and should probably seek rehabilitation before being reintroduced to society? Okay, that's one thing.

Is it someone who is not being managed properly, pushed into the wrong role, not given the right tools to do their job? Are they stuck in a dysfunctional culture run by sycophants, idiots and bullies? Are they unintentionally paving a road to hell with the best of intentions and the worst of consequences?

What I'm trying to get at here is the necessity of supervision. Organizations have command structures and hierarchies, whether implicit or explicit. The risks and consequences of those structures ultimately lies with management and leadership -- after all, it's with them that the true agency lies!

If it's not the job of management and leadership to train, manage out or fire misfits within the organization, what exactly is their job? After all, it's not individual contribution. There's sales, marketing, fundraising -- but except for the last one (and even that's a stretch), these are all team efforts. You maximize output from your team by removing unnecessary friction. If that can't happen passively, active changes need to be made.

Of course, such a brain-dead thinkpiece never couches with such responsibility or collectivist realities. They're comforting kernels of individualist tactics, sold to give the illusion of control. They're as attractive as a trendy new diet built on poor foundations, but about as effective: that is to say, not at all.

Nothing can kill a company as quickly as poor leadership. As a company gets larger, logistics rears its ugly head. Pragmatic structuring can mitigate that, and good leadership can bring about directional change towards that. But, nothing can stop bad leadership until it wants to improve.

Re: Toxic Workers Are More Productive, But the Price Is High

#172
post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe “So I decide to start hiring prioritizing these characteristics along with individual ability?” As for capitalism and productivity I highly recommend Dan Lyons’ Lab Rats exposing the complete chaos that human management is in. People dynamics are complex and well, dynamic. Changes and rules carry potential for difficult to predict outcomes. Humans are not hens and capitalism has turned out to be extremely unpro…

Let's imagine you and I play Roshambo - rock, paper, scissors. The game theory optimal solution here is easy - I randomly pick one. This means I will never score better than 50% (in the longrun), but I will also never score worse than 50%. Now if I actually tried to play and beat you then I could, in theory, win every single time if I somehow I just managed to really get into your head. But at the same time, I now op…

"Probably" applied to catastrophic outcomes isn't particularly reassuring.

It also requires a certain wilful denial of the mounting evidence that catastrophic outcomes - including starvation, oppression, and worse - have already happened for many people, and are likely to happen for many more people in the near/medium future.

Having said, it's true that this is the Number One problem that humanity has to fix now - how to deal with bad actors?

Clearly, elevating them to positions of immense power and influence through political, corporate, and economic systems that attempt to deny their toxicity isn't the correct answer.

Meanwhile there's a certain unaware irony in applying the "toxic" label to employees, but not to employers.

Most of the FAANGs (with the possible exception of Netflix) and many prominent unicorns could be considered toxic actors in exactly the sense described in the paper the OP is based on - self-regarding, high-performers generating high productivity gains for insiders, but a net social and cultural loss overall.

Re: Toxic Workers Are More Productive, But the Price Is High

#173
post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The method which worked better for chickens still involved selecting the best cohort (capitalism), and this improved over open breeding (socialism) The method that worked best for people that is. It has been pretty damn horrible for chickens. From the comment: > Indeed, for some strange reason, the individual breeding programs which had been so successful at increasing egg production now required hens to have their…

The thing you quoted isn’t related to what I called the better method, but rather the one I compared to monarchy/central planning — a poor idea. The one I called a better method was the top cohort selection, not individual selection.

Oh gotcha, misunderstood your comment.

Re: Toxic Workers Are More Productive, But the Price Is High

#174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> tautological definition There's a picture that gets re-posted on LinkedIn periodically of Netflix's CTO Reed Hastings captioned with a quote attributed to him: "Do not tolerate brilliant jerks. The cost to teamwork is too high." Although this is the sort of feel-good positive fluff that is perfect LinkedIn-bait, I can't help but notice that the people who re-post it and re-share it tend to be people who I remember…

Having worked at Netflix, I can tell you the difference: An experienced person says "In my experience, this is the best way to go because of X, Y, and Z". A jerk says, "The best option is my way and if you do it any other way you're wrong and I don't have to justify myself to you because I'm that good." In both cases what the person is suggesting is in fact the right way to go most of the time. The difference is whet…

>"The best option is my way and if you do it any other way you're wrong and I don't have to justify myself to you because I'm that good."

...but if they've been with the service, let's say Netflix - as you eluded to, since it's inception, then I would think that they would know the answer far better than an engineer that's only been around a month or so.

What you're taking for arrogance might be the engineer simply stating that they've been around the block or two and, having had people try to discredit them before, they want to establish that their experience trumps someone else's own arrogance.

It's not the best way to put it, to be sure, but people have different ways of expressing themselves and/or different expectations of others.

The problem is two-fold: Understanding everyone's personalities and their expectations; and then using that knowledge to build channels of communications with those principles in mind.

If you haven't heard of Insights trainings[0], I highly suggest checking it out.

Anyways, so while one engineer might care about other things, which I might find arbitrary because I only care about the datasets (e.g.: something tangible), it doesn't mean that either of us are "wrong". Just because all I care about is the data surrounding a bug defect doesn't mean I'm an asshole, compared to someone who cares about the end-uer's experience. We're simply driven by different aspirations.

The same goes for your jerk engineer. Maybe they're tired of people trying to disprove their statements and tack on the, "I'm that good" at the end precisely because they're tired of the bullshit, A-type personality shit that comes with everyone trying to one-up them to look cool. Or maybe they're actually a jerk. I don't even pretend to claim to know.

...but immediately attributing malice, where other answers can just as easily suffice, does everyone a disservice because you don't rely on communication to understand the why behind whatever was said. You take this assumption you've made, let it create a bias, and then that bias affects your interactions with them.

All of that could've easily been avoided by a simple, "Hey, man (or chica or your flavour of vernacular), I wanted to ask what's up and see if you knew/understood/comprehend/what-have-you how what you said came across when...." A lot of the times, you'll probably find that they had no intention of it sounding like that but 'x' was on their mind or some other factor was in play. You could also find out that they are, indeed, a jerk; but that would, at the very least, be a confirmation and not just an assumption, yeah?

Anyways, this was a long, fuck-all, pointless diatribe to say that someone might come across to you as a feckwad but it doesn't - implicitly - mean that that's who they are, in their day-to-day.

I've experienced people I thought were arrogant as feckall, until I had 1:1's with them and got to know their personalities and perspective a lot better. Once I understood where they were coming from and how they think and/or react to things, I could tailor my behaviour better towards their personalities and they could do the same in kind.

(Sorry for the feck-all novel.)

[0] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sP6QbVND04g

Re: Toxic Workers Are More Productive, But the Price Is High

#175
post #117
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It'll reward the companies with the best groups of people, but not the best groups of companies, which I think the other comment was getting at.

I am not sure what best means in this context..? Most utilitaristic? Best in stealing public resources while being seen as a philantropist? What the best is, depends on the incentives, the goals and the company culture. The best Mafioso in a group of the best mafiosi will be without a doubt a damn good Mafioso – but what does this mean for the rest of society?

The definition of best is irrelevant. The point is the distinction between maximizing something for an individual versus maximizing that same thing for the group.

Re: Toxic Workers Are More Productive, But the Price Is High

#176
They define a rockstar as someone in the top 1% of productivity. In order to know how many average employees that equates to, you need to know something about the distribution of productivity across employees. Only then can you judge whether the harm caused to normal employees by the "toxic rockstar" is worth the price.

Re: Toxic Workers Are More Productive, But the Price Is High

#177
This just sounds like the same as the nice guy paradox. If girls are looking to date guys who are both nice and good-looking, you only date guys who are assholes if they are really good looking.

Same thing with a "rockstar" asshole engineeer. If you weren't an awesome engineer on top of being an asshole, you wouldn't even be employed and we're not talking about you.

It's not because there's this magical correlation between being a "rockstar" and an asshole. This is just an outcome of sampling.

Re: Toxic Workers Are More Productive, But the Price Is High

#178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the most dominant hen, that pecked its way to the top of the pecking order at the expense of other hens. Individual selection doesn't necessarily work to the benefit of the group but wait... our entire economical system is based on this.

I don't think that's entirely true. I think the idea that the only way to "win" in business is by pushing others aside is incorrect. This thinking assumes that the economy is a zero sum game and there's plenty of reason to question that assumption. There are certainly elements in the economy that take value from others without creating any value in the process, but there are also people / companies that get wealthy b…

It’s neither true nor false, and value is subjective.

Re: Toxic Workers Are More Productive, But the Price Is High

#179
post #175
post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not sure what best means in this context..? Most utilitaristic? Best in stealing public resources while being seen as a philantropist? What the best is, depends on the incentives, the goals and the company culture. The best Mafioso in a group of the best mafiosi will be without a doubt a damn good Mafioso – but what does this mean for the rest of society?

The definition of best is irrelevant. The point is the distinction between maximizing something for an individual versus maximizing that same thing for the group.

It isn’t irrelevant in practice, not for those who suffer from it and not for society as a whole because of missed potential.

I understand why a isolated look at these things could make sense though

Re: Toxic Workers Are More Productive, But the Price Is High

#180

Sadly, with our irreproducability crisis in research, p-hacking, and agenda driven media I’ve stopped taking articles like this seriously. Sad because you don’t need a lot of bad apples to spoil the well and I’m sure more research is legit and intellectually honest.

Apples generally spoil barrels or bunches. Dead animals will generally spoil a well.
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