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Bell Labs Researcher Discusses the Realities of 5G

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Re: Bell Labs Researcher Discusses the Realities of 5G

#61

Post by ksec »

leoh wrote: post #24

It's hard for me to understand why anyone is excited about 5G when most carriers aren't running full bandwidth 4G and have significant data caps. Although 5G may be fast in some markets, 5G on the whole just seems so pointless for consumers.

If we stop think 5G as a "G" in Generation, and starting thinking it as improved LTE, an evolution rather than what many are trying to spin as revolution. From the point of average consumer is exactly what it is, improved Internet. 2G was about Voice, 3G was Voice + Data, 4G is all about Data. 5G is much improved 4G. Making Data Cheaper.

>>when most carriers aren't running full bandwidth 4G and have significant data

Time and Time again I have seen this everywhere in forums. In Reality is not like Telcos, MNO or Carriers what ever you like to call it, tries to limit your Data Cap. MNO are fundamentally limited by their capacity. There is roughly 10 to 20% YoY increase ( Depending on Nations ) in Mobile Data usage. There is a long tail of users just coming in from 3G to LTE and start enjoying the Mobile Internet. Since their Infrastructure don't improve their capacity 10%+ per year, that is why you have Data Caps and why your Mobile Network isn't getting faster. ( And may in fact be getting slower ).

MNO reframing the 3G spectrum to LTE to help lessen the load, users upgrade to latest Smartphone with better features set to improve network efficiency usage, The faster you finish, the less time you are on the network. Another reason why MNO wants you upgrade to the latest and greatest Smartphone

Once 5G reaches the current stage of 4G, you are likely looking at ~10 to 20x Capacity improvement. ( This is accounting for 128 x 128 Massive MIMO, Small Cell etc ) In theory this gives plenty of room for different MNO to compete, and should lower the price. In the long term, 5G should lower the cost per MB for everybody. That is assuming all else being equal, wages, lease, equipment, etc. In realty those prices are rising as well.

But judging at the current climate we are at least 4 - 5 years away that happening. One being Cell Site infrastructure, despite what AT&T or Verizon wants you to believe, they are far from optimal. It will likely take another year of testing and tuning before widely deployed ( Or to be more precise, Switched on. Since most of the current Cell deployed are software upgradable to support 5G ). Second being 5G Smartphone will be expensive. Everything from Silicon to the Antenna are much more complicated. And as we know technology aren't dropping prices like they are used to. Third is Smartphone replacement cycle are now into 4 years. If you buy an Smartphone in the past 18 months, it wont be until 2022 before you might get a new one. And 5G Smartphone might still be expensive then, which causes delay it for another cycle.

Re: Bell Labs Researcher Discusses the Realities of 5G

#62

Post by nimish »

Nokinside wrote: post #23
nimish wrote: post #2

4G->5G is the equivalent to upgrading from gigabit to 10 gigabit ethernet yet everyone is treating it like some kind of insane technology. I have yet to see what exactly the hype is about.

People seem to have strong opinion that this is the case even though they are most likely wrong. Just some changes: * You will have your own 5G home router micro cells. Factories will have their own 5G networks in unallocate bandwidth. Like Wi-fi but lower latency and better services. * High quality low latency streaming means that gaming consoles will disappear from homes. You can stream games either from servers or…

Why? I have wifi. It's low enough latency. What better services would I have using 5g vs WiFi as a layer 2?

Nothing about 5g is _unique_ to 5g except that it's controlled by telcos.

Re: Bell Labs Researcher Discusses the Realities of 5G

#63

Post by slededit »

rayiner wrote: post #48
jjoonathan wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If new bandwidth / more bandwidth means new market entrants / more market entrants, it'll be great! I am sure that legions of lobbyists, politicians, and businessmen are working diligently as we speak to make sure that doesn't happen, but I want to believe.

Notwithstanding this supposed lobbying, we have four nationwide 4G networks—more competition than we have in putatively lobbying free markets like social media, search engines, and cell phone and tablet operating systems. The biggest roadblock to 5G is not lobbyists, but rather NIMBYs complaining about how small cells will clutter up the neighborhood.

To be fair, a little effort in aesthetics goes a long way.

Re: Bell Labs Researcher Discusses the Realities of 5G

#64

Post by Nokinside »

nimish wrote: post #62
Nokinside wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People seem to have strong opinion that this is the case even though they are most likely wrong. Just some changes: * You will have your own 5G home router micro cells. Factories will have their own 5G networks in unallocate bandwidth. Like Wi-fi but lower latency and better services. * High quality low latency streaming means that gaming consoles will disappear from homes. You can stream games either from servers or…

Why? I have wifi. It's low enough latency. What better services would I have using 5g vs WiFi as a layer 2? Nothing about 5g is _unique_ to 5g except that it's controlled by telcos.

5G is less controlled by telcos than 4G.

You can run local networks without buying it from telcos.

Re: Bell Labs Researcher Discusses the Realities of 5G

#65

Post by kingosticks »

learc83 wrote: post #59
kingosticks wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Surely they'd always install the radios above bus/lorry height? Even in low sprawling areas of the U.S. there's sufficient building height available for that?

Above bus height at the tower doesn't mean that every section of the sight lines between the tower and each house is above bus height.

I specifically meant when it comes to mounting it on the office/house endpoint. Everything else in between should have another flexibility when it comes to choosing the location.

Re: Bell Labs Researcher Discusses the Realities of 5G

#66

Post by wsgeorge »

noselasd wrote: post #55
jjoonathan wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> potential advances in remote surgeries Whoops, truck drove by, there goes the signal!

This is the difference between the ceo and the engineer, the ceo sees potential, the engineer sees problems. They're both needed.

Hah, this is my exact experience! Anytime someone's painting the big picture, I'm running it through my head to see how feasible it is, what may go wrong, etc.

While relevant, I find that predisposition limiting...

Re: Bell Labs Researcher Discusses the Realities of 5G

#67

Post by nimish »

Nokinside wrote: post #64
nimish wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? I have wifi. It's low enough latency. What better services would I have using 5g vs WiFi as a layer 2? Nothing about 5g is _unique_ to 5g except that it's controlled by telcos.

5G is less controlled by telcos than 4G. You can run local networks without buying it from telcos.

But I can already do that with WiFi? I'm really not seeing the advantage unless somehow there's going to be a lot of 5G gear in unlicensed bands that's somehow mystically better than WiFi.

Re: Bell Labs Researcher Discusses the Realities of 5G

#68

Post by jjoonathan »

rayiner wrote: post #48
jjoonathan wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If new bandwidth / more bandwidth means new market entrants / more market entrants, it'll be great! I am sure that legions of lobbyists, politicians, and businessmen are working diligently as we speak to make sure that doesn't happen, but I want to believe.

Notwithstanding this supposed lobbying, we have four nationwide 4G networks—more competition than we have in putatively lobbying free markets like social media, search engines, and cell phone and tablet operating systems. The biggest roadblock to 5G is not lobbyists, but rather NIMBYs complaining about how small cells will clutter up the neighborhood.

...and one cable internet provider at nearly any given location.

Re: Bell Labs Researcher Discusses the Realities of 5G

#69

Post by johnm1019 »

dharma1 wrote: post #11
johnm1019 wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mostly agree but I want to nitpick. One of the areas I've heard should be improving with 5G is latency. On 4G we're talking O(10ms)? which on 5G, so says the marketing, should be O(1ms). If this is true, it will make a noticeable impact on the responsiveness of web driven apps (aka almost all apps) as well as video/audio chat liveness. Was this oversold to me (highly probable)?

Reducing latency between the tower and your phone by 9ms won't make a big difference to the overall experience of web apps. But I think real world 4G latency is more like 40-50ms? In addition to mobile network latency you have to add a few more things - depending on how far you are from the data centre serving the web app you're looking at ~20ms-300ms additional network latency, plus however long the server takes to…

FYI O(10ms) means anything from 10-99ms.

Re: Bell Labs Researcher Discusses the Realities of 5G

#70

Post by learc83 »

Spooky23 wrote: post #60
learc83 wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but running it down the street is comparatively a much bigger cost. And I'm not sure the cost of maintaining a radio on every street corner, individual antennas on every house, and maintaining a clear line of site to every individual antenna is going to be cheaper than burying a few extra feet of fiber in the long run. Plus running fiber from the street to the house means the residents don't have to worry about…

On my block, they installed about 4 poles. The fiber splicing/install work took about 3 hours. Those poles will serve something like 150 households someday. This is a mid-density urban block with 1-4 family buildings. It took Verizon two weeks to install external FIOS CPE equipment in my brothers’ subdivision, and probably yielded fewer homes. That’s a lot of capital cost, and these telcos are looking for margins clo…

You're comparing a subdivision to an urban block, and you're not including time and cost to clear LOS obstacles. It's also very unlikely that 4 small poles will have direct line of site to 150 households outside of high density apartment buildings where running fiber directly to the building is already easy.
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