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U.S. Supreme Court Puts Limits on Police Power to Seize Private Property

nytimes.com

101–110 of 457 posts

Re: U.S. Supreme Court Puts Limits on Police Power to Seize Private Property

#101
post #66
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The alternative to case law is that ambiguities in the statute are interpreted differently each time. Being subject to the law, I would much rather live in a system designed to automatically reduce ambiguities over time, rather than to have to wait for the legislature to have the political will and resources to address them.

The USA is a common-law jurisdiction which means that convention and "how things were always done" have outsized significance when compared to civil-law jurisdictions like much of western Europe. Civil-law jurisdictions tend to rely more on statute, but they also have legislatures that can actually get things done, rather than cultivate this bogus adversarial relationship between the people and the government wherein…

I agree that the structure of American democracy allows for the dysfunctional equilibrium that the US Congress presently finds themselves in, and I agree that some of that structure is in contrast to other contemporary classically liberal democracies.

But even a more functional and productive legislature does not have the same bandwidth to look at individual ambiguities, nor the mandate to do so, thats found in the federal appellate courts. Moreover, the reliance on case law does not remove the legislature's ability to adjust the statute when they believe that case law has got things wrong.

Please correct me if I'm missing something, but I see civil-law jurisdictions as having strictly fewer resources to clarify ambiguities in the law when compared to common-law jurisdictions. Although some civil-law jurisdictions happen to also have more productive and responsive legislative and regulatory bodies, as far as I can tell, that's unrelated to their use of civil-law.

Re: U.S. Supreme Court Puts Limits on Police Power to Seize Private Property

#102
post #59
post #13

Listen and read the oral argument here (oyez): —edited, correct case: https://apps.oyez.org/player/#/roberts10/oral_argument_audio...

The date is 1993, so it seems to be an older case?

Corrected, thanks.

Re: U.S. Supreme Court Puts Limits on Police Power to Seize Private Property

#103
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germany provides many Basic Rights to everybody. Others are only for citizens (and EU citizens, but via a strange legal method), but the most fundamental ones state "Everyone", not "every citizen".

Same with Sweden. For example, Allemansrätten (Freedom to Roam) applies to alla människor (or all people), not just citizens.

Right. It's mentioned in every tourist guide I've seen about Sweden, and it is drawing outdoor types to the country.

Smart move. :-)

Re: U.S. Supreme Court Puts Limits on Police Power to Seize Private Property

#104
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No country on Earth affords equal rights to citizens and non-citizens. If this "terrifies" you, I encourage you to reflect on your fears and whether some of them may be disproportionate to reality.

Germany provides many Basic Rights to everybody. Others are only for citizens (and EU citizens, but via a strange legal method), but the most fundamental ones state "Everyone", not "every citizen".

So, in other words, Germany provides different rights for citizens and non-citizens. Which is what the GP was saying.

Not having basic protections for non-citizens would be rather worrying, but let's not act like the mere existence of a difference is worth freaking out about.

EDIT: To be clear, I'm not suggesting that Justice Thomas's concurrence not providing these protections to non-citizens would be a good thing. I'm just saying that 'non-citizens should have the same rights as citizens' isn't a position held by any country on the planet.

Re: U.S. Supreme Court Puts Limits on Police Power to Seize Private Property

#105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No country on Earth affords equal rights to citizens and non-citizens. If this "terrifies" you, I encourage you to reflect on your fears and whether some of them may be disproportionate to reality.

> No country on Earth affords equal rights to citizens and non-citizens. That's fine, but affording no rights to non-citizens would be highly problematic. Some argue the Constitution doesn't protect the rights of illegal immigrants, for example, but it makes clear distinctions by using "persons" in some spots and "citizens" in others. Persons have a right to due process. Citizens have a right to vote. The difference…

> That's fine, but affording no rights to non-citizens would be highly problematic.

Which is why we have the status quo: the vast majority of rights enjoyed my U.S. citizens and residents are enjoyed by aliens, with some discretion.

Re: U.S. Supreme Court Puts Limits on Police Power to Seize Private Property

#106

>The court had, however, previously ruled that most protections under the Bill of Rights apply to the states >...the Indiana Supreme Court ruled against Mr. Timbs, saying that the Eighth Amendment’s prohibition of excessive fines did not apply to ones imposed by states. Does anyone know which rights people assume they have but don't because the protection only applies on the federal level?

The 3rd (quartering of soldiers) and 7th (jury trial for civil cases) Amendments have not been incorporated at all, as well as parts of the 5th (Grand Jury indictment) and 6th (jury from the location of the crime).

https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/incorporation_doctrine

Re: U.S. Supreme Court Puts Limits on Police Power to Seize Private Property

#107
post #75

What I'd like to know is if private property that was seized in the past will be returned? One of my friend's dad had a hip surgery and was bed bound for a few weeks. The family had to be at work so they hired a live in helper who was an older woman in her 60s. This older woman's story was a tragic one to hear. She had immigrated from Asia to US with her husband and family and had managed to buy a 3bed house. Well li…

The landlord is supposed to proceed with eviction if a crime occurs on their property. The police will even tell the landlord that if they don't evict, they will seize the house under "nuisance laws".

Re: U.S. Supreme Court Puts Limits on Police Power to Seize Private Property

#108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a permanent resident who lives in the US, the idea that basic protections of law should only apply to citizens is terrifying. It's not the same outcome at all. Due process is afforded to "persons".

Quite recently, we have had two Presidents claim that non-citizens had no right to challenge their imprisonment by the United States (Bush in Gitmo and Obama on Bagram AFB in the Middle East) who ran smack into a Supreme Court that found their actions unconstitutional. The notion that Constitutional protections cannot apply to non-citizens is simply not true, even when applied to non-citizens being held by the US off…

I understand this and I'm heartened that the Supreme Court majority continues to find that. I was getting at the distinction between what the majority ruled; that excessive fines are a breach of due process, which applies to all "persons", and the comment that Justice Thomas would have preferred to arrive at the 'same outcome' on the basis that it was a breach of the 'privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States’.

My point is that those are different outcomes, not the same; one protects me - a person in the US who is not a US citizen - and the other does not. The difference is also a furtherance of a generally authoritarian idea that non-US-citizens should have not equal protection under the law.

Re: U.S. Supreme Court Puts Limits on Police Power to Seize Private Property

#109

> Justice Thomas agreed with the result in the case, Timbs v. Indiana, No. 17-1091, but said he would have gotten to the same place by a different route. While the majority relied on the due process clause of the 14th Amendment, Justice Thomas said he would have ruled “the right to be free from excessive fines is one of the ‘privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States’ protected by the 14th Amendment.”…

No, the rest of the court found the the excessive punishment protection of the eighth amendment was applied to the states through the Due Process Clause of the 14th Amendment as an essential right and therefore a component of “liberty” as used in the due process clause.

Thomas disagrees with this fairly conventional incorporation argument and the idea of the protection as a fundamental right, but feels instead that a protection against excessive fines is part of the “privileges and immunities of citizens of the United States”. This distinction isn't merely semantic, though the end result in the present case is the same: under the majority view, the prohibition against excessive fines is a limitation on state government in all cases; in Thomas's view, it would not be a limit if the target of the state action were not a US citizen, since noncitizens necessarily do not enjoy the privileges and immunities of citizens.

All of the justices view it as excessive punishment, Thomas just thinks only US citizens are protected by the federal Constitution against excessive punishment by state governments, whereas the majority thinks states are Constitutionally prohibited from inflicting excessive punishment on people.

Re: U.S. Supreme Court Puts Limits on Police Power to Seize Private Property

#110

Non-paywalled press release from the Institute for Justice, who worked on this case as part of their mission to fight civil forfeiture: https://ij.org/press-release/u-s-supreme-court-rules-unanimo...

To those that want to support the Institute for Justice, they are a 501(c)3 non-profit accepting donations [1].

It's my favorite charity, whose missions include protection of private property, economic liberty, and the first amendment; and their results speak for themselves.

[1] https://ij.org/about-us

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