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Toxic Workers Are More Productive, But the Price Is High

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Re: Toxic Workers Are More Productive, But the Price Is High

#101

Post by wppick »

diminoten wrote: post #71
happytotoss wrote: post #58

I have recently been labeled a “brilliant jerk” at a FAANG company and threatened with termination. In actuality I now know that I have acted like this (not always but sometimes) and I take ownership of it. In trying to come to terms with it, I’ve been doing a lot of research and I think the research is overly simplistic particularly when it comes to motivation. I am not a psychopath and I am not purely self interest…

It's... scary sometimes, reading comments like these. On one hand, I identify with what you've written here. I too had issues (still have) with working on a team. On the other hand, I find myself identifying with someone with clear narcissistic tendencies, or at the very least is supremely unaware of themselves. Why write this little confessional here, a place that's clearly not about you or your specific issue? Why…

It's... an anecdote. It's very related to the linked article, and adds insight into what the industry is considering toxic. You must be very easily scared if a personal anecdote causes this kind of a reaction from you.

Re: Toxic Workers Are More Productive, But the Price Is High

#102

Post by jerf »

unknowns wrote: post #82
blue1379 wrote: post #8

https://news.harvard.edu/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/16-057_d... It comes to a figure of 12k loss as the cost of replacing the toxic employee. Yes, replacing an employee is always a net loss in isolation. It seems to be using a tautological definition: defines a “toxic” employee as: “A worker that engages in behavior that is harmful to an organization, including either its property or people.” Yes, that causes a net l…

I found the guy. If I try as hard as I possibly can and output 20% of an amazing individual. do I have no place in this world? Listen, this is the basic level of human interaction. manners are oil for bodies at friction, and respect is a gateway to team participation. If you cant see the value in that, then you are the problem. You can output a million times the output of your team, but if you dont have a team then y…

"If I try as hard as I possibly can and output 20% of an amazing individual. do I have no place in this world?"

You have a place in this world, no question.

But it may not be at the company of your choice, in the job of your choice, at the pay of your choice.

With the genes I rolled, there is no amount of work I could have done to become an NFL quarterback. C'est la vie. The NFL owes me nothing.

Re: Toxic Workers Are More Productive, But the Price Is High

#103

Post by unknowns »

5trokerac3 wrote: post #97
unknowns wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I found the guy. If I try as hard as I possibly can and output 20% of an amazing individual. do I have no place in this world? Listen, this is the basic level of human interaction. manners are oil for bodies at friction, and respect is a gateway to team participation. If you cant see the value in that, then you are the problem. You can output a million times the output of your team, but if you dont have a team then y…

As someone proclaiming that "manners are oil for bodies at friction", the ridiculousness of your rudeness is only surpassed by the unbelievable strawman you just set up. blue1379 brings up some very valid questions. If a snobbish, but highly talented employee builds toolkits/engines that double or triple the production of the average employee, does the same equation used in the study apply? On the other hand, what co…

A talented employee can be rude and disruptive to a team? but lower valued employees play beer pong.

My unbelievable straw man is looking great in your yard. Along with the many things I "seem" to say versus the things I actually say.

Re: Toxic Workers Are More Productive, But the Price Is High

#104

Post by DoofusOfDeath »

move-on-by wrote: post #39
gwbas1c wrote: post #16

I liked the article, but I find the definition of a toxic worker difficult. It's more like the article defines a toxic worker by the result, not the symptom. In reality, what are the symptoms of a toxic worker? What are the causes? What are the situations where someone might be labeled "toxic" but the real problem is something else?

This is a good question. I think I was labeled the toxic worker in my previous job. I was a team lead and kept bring up concerns to my manager: * 'this deadline is unrealistic' * 'we can't continue at this pace, we have to have time to address some serious technical debt' * 'I heard marketing saying that we can do X, but it isn't true and to add feature X would destroy our timeline' * 'Adding more contractors isn't g…

> I think I was labeled the toxic worker in my previous job. I was a team lead and kept bring up concerns to my manager

If someone was using the term "toxic" simply because of those behaviors, I'd say they were just using the wrong word.

Based only on what you wrote, another possibility seems to be that some aspect of how you communicated those concerns, or some other aspect of your behavior entirely, is what caused people to consider you "toxic". It would be interesting to hear your former manager's view of things.

In my own experience, I've had plenty of cases where my own view of my conduct was very different from how my coworkers viewed me. The cumulative impact of miscommunication and my occasional lack of self-awareness has caused me some serious grief.

Re: Toxic Workers Are More Productive, But the Price Is High

#105

Post by overcast »

alexandercrohde wrote: post #44
gwbas1c wrote: post #16

I liked the article, but I find the definition of a toxic worker difficult. It's more like the article defines a toxic worker by the result, not the symptom. In reality, what are the symptoms of a toxic worker? What are the causes? What are the situations where someone might be labeled "toxic" but the real problem is something else?

Absolutely, there's a sort of double-speak going on here. If we define toxic as they did "harmful to the org" then HR, or even the CEO can be toxic (i.e. not good for the company). Heck, by this definition, even unions might be "toxic." But in practice, 9/10 times when somebody says "toxic" they really mean rebellious (i.e. disagreeing with management decisions, calling out dishonest messaging, asking for transparenc…

Honestly, your 9/10 bit makes you sound like a manager who has been called out for making poor decisions. That isn't what I'd consider a toxic employee AT ALL. If you're making stupid decisions, you should be called out on it. Going by your definition, the manager would be considered toxic to the company as well.

Re: Toxic Workers Are More Productive, But the Price Is High

#106

Post by wppick »

There will always be people with high ambition that want to perform and grow, and those people will likely be in contention with another type of person who wants a relaxing, stable, fun, and sustainable work environment. It's the job of leadership to match the right people together and set values and boundaries so that both of those employee types can satisfy their desires. It's lazy to just start labelling people as toxic. It's an oversimplification. Imagine putting a high performance athlete who is driven by the need to push themselves and compete with a bunch of lazy couch potatoes who just want to socialize and get a light workout.

Re: Toxic Workers Are More Productive, But the Price Is High

#107

Post by unknowns »

jerf wrote: post #102
unknowns wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I found the guy. If I try as hard as I possibly can and output 20% of an amazing individual. do I have no place in this world? Listen, this is the basic level of human interaction. manners are oil for bodies at friction, and respect is a gateway to team participation. If you cant see the value in that, then you are the problem. You can output a million times the output of your team, but if you dont have a team then y…

"If I try as hard as I possibly can and output 20% of an amazing individual. do I have no place in this world?" You have a place in this world, no question. But it may not be at the company of your choice, in the job of your choice, at the pay of your choice. With the genes I rolled, there is no amount of work I could have done to become an NFL quarterback. C'est la vie. The NFL owes me nothing.

100% agree. People dont always make the right decisions, you may be dealing with a fish out of water in a job they chose, but dont belong in. People make mistakes. We all do, thats how we learn. Excellent comment.

Re: Toxic Workers Are More Productive, But the Price Is High

#108

Post by bargl »

happytotoss wrote: post #58

I have recently been labeled a “brilliant jerk” at a FAANG company and threatened with termination. In actuality I now know that I have acted like this (not always but sometimes) and I take ownership of it. In trying to come to terms with it, I’ve been doing a lot of research and I think the research is overly simplistic particularly when it comes to motivation. I am not a psychopath and I am not purely self interest…

> I would get upset when people could not follow a logical line of thought.

I think that's one of the biggest things I struggle with and have tried to get in front of for myself.

I know picking one sentence out takes it out of context. But this is the thing I find myself working on the most to not seem like a jerk. Most of the time, if I take the time to try to understand people, then I can teach them. I've been learning this with my wife, when I got way way deep down into something and she has an opinion on it but hasn't researched it like I have, I try to throw information at her until she "sees" what I see. We actually fought about this earlier this week. I was doing what you're talking about right now.

When I catch myself doing this, I have to scale back. Not everyone will get what you are saying at the same level. Find people who do and talk to them, about the details and figure out a way to abstract your ideas for people based on figuring out what they know and how to best simplify the concepts for what they already know. It doesn't work for me all the time, sometimes I still seem like a jerk. But I struggle with this too, although I assume you are probably quite a bit more intelligent than I am.

I also use self deprecation strategically to give people I'm talking to an insight into my faults. Sometimes it helps me build kinship. Always something I believe about myself, but in a way that helps me show I'm not perfect.

>I probably won’t stick my neck out like that again. When I find myself in this situation (which I do from time to time) I find something else worth sticking my neck out for.

>I make mistakes too and I’m trying to learn from all this. That's what makes you an awesome human.

Good luck.

Re: Toxic Workers Are More Productive, But the Price Is High

#109

Post by [deleted] »

happytotoss wrote: post #58

I have recently been labeled a “brilliant jerk” at a FAANG company and threatened with termination. In actuality I now know that I have acted like this (not always but sometimes) and I take ownership of it. In trying to come to terms with it, I’ve been doing a lot of research and I think the research is overly simplistic particularly when it comes to motivation. I am not a psychopath and I am not purely self interest…

[deleted]

Re: Toxic Workers Are More Productive, But the Price Is High

#110

Post by 5trokerac3 »

unknowns wrote: post #103
5trokerac3 wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone proclaiming that "manners are oil for bodies at friction", the ridiculousness of your rudeness is only surpassed by the unbelievable strawman you just set up. blue1379 brings up some very valid questions. If a snobbish, but highly talented employee builds toolkits/engines that double or triple the production of the average employee, does the same equation used in the study apply? On the other hand, what co…

A talented employee can be rude and disruptive to a team? but lower valued employees play beer pong. My unbelievable straw man is looking great in your yard. Along with the many things I "seem" to say versus the things I actually say.

I think you need to take a walk and cool down from internet conversation. If this is how you talk to your coworkers when confronted with disagreement then I don't think you're the "non-toxic" one in your office.
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