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Toxic Workers Are More Productive, But the Price Is High

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Re: Toxic Workers Are More Productive, But the Price Is High

#71

Post by diminoten »

happytotoss wrote: post #58

I have recently been labeled a “brilliant jerk” at a FAANG company and threatened with termination. In actuality I now know that I have acted like this (not always but sometimes) and I take ownership of it. In trying to come to terms with it, I’ve been doing a lot of research and I think the research is overly simplistic particularly when it comes to motivation. I am not a psychopath and I am not purely self interest…

It's... scary sometimes, reading comments like these.

On one hand, I identify with what you've written here. I too had issues (still have) with working on a team.

On the other hand, I find myself identifying with someone with clear narcissistic tendencies, or at the very least is supremely unaware of themselves.

Why write this little confessional here, a place that's clearly not about you or your specific issue? Why couch it with tons of "but I didn't actually do anything wrong" notes? Why write it in such a rambling, stream-of-consciousness style? Why put these weirdly specific anecdotes, and why would the reader (who is the reader, by the way) even believe you?

I see these comments, and I get scared, because I recognize that this is how some people view me, and that's... not good.

Re: Toxic Workers Are More Productive, But the Price Is High

#72

Post by pojzon »

xkcd-sucks wrote: post #30
gwbas1c wrote: post #16

I liked the article, but I find the definition of a toxic worker difficult. It's more like the article defines a toxic worker by the result, not the symptom. In reality, what are the symptoms of a toxic worker? What are the causes? What are the situations where someone might be labeled "toxic" but the real problem is something else?

Asking that question might itself be "toxic". If "the group" arrives at that decision, consensus is better than correctness etc

When you are blaimed individually for the failure later on, is that also "the group" consensus?

In the long run always individuals are blamed and not groups..

Re: Toxic Workers Are More Productive, But the Price Is High

#73

Post by chimprich »

tomp wrote: post #69
lordnacho wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How often do people get promoted on the basis that they will make the team better? Have you ever heard of that? How often do you hear "the IT guys kept things running well, enabling the sales people to bring the money in, so they get a piece of that?" Most of the time people who get stuff are the ones who have been attributed the most output individually.

Right, that's a single company's management system, but our economic system selects for best companies == groups of people. So, no, the point was completely wrong.

If you consider the hens in the analogy to be companies (rather than people) I think it holds.

We select for companies that can outcompete other companies rather than ones that contribute the most to the system.

Re: Toxic Workers Are More Productive, But the Price Is High

#74

Post by maxxxxx »

Sharlin wrote: post #66
maxxxxx wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depending on circumstances this sounds like the description of someone who moves up the ladder. It seems there is a very fine line between this description of “toxic” and “achiever”.

Isn't that the point of the study? The system is broken if individually productive but net counterproductive people are labeled "achievers" and promoted.

I guess I am looking at it from the employee perspective. If you want to advance it’s probably better to risk being called toxic instead of being a good team player who never gets anywhere.

Re: Toxic Workers Are More Productive, But the Price Is High

#75

Post by diminoten »

AllegedAlec wrote: post #17

> Toxic employees don’t care about a company’s goals, nor do they care about building relationships with co-workers. More than just self-centered office bullies, toxic employees are actually strategic and covert. This sort of describes the sociopaths of the Gervais Principle. I don't necessarily see how this is a Bad Thing to be. If relationships help you through the day, sure, go for it, but it doesn't help you in y…

This is precisely the toxic attitude talked about in the submission. Your goals shouldn't be opposed to the company's goals, and if they are, you're creating a problem on the team.

Doing "as little work as possible" in particular would immediately put you in the category of "toxic" here, specifically because it's completely unnecessary to living a balanced life. The only person that helps is you, as opposed to what a healthy person does, and that's find ways to help both themselves and the company.

It's not zero sum, and treating work like it is makes a person toxic.

Re: Toxic Workers Are More Productive, But the Price Is High

#76

Post by EpicEng »

andrewflnr wrote: post #65
EpicEng wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you swipe this from reddit? https://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/asmvxc/til_a...

Alternatively, you found GP's Reddit account.

Nope, checked that before posting here.

https://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/asmvxc/til_a...

Re: Toxic Workers Are More Productive, But the Price Is High

#77

Post by chooseaname »

stnmtn wrote: post #63
Nasrudith wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That depends on the management and is part of what makes a good manager. I have heard of many accounts of successful and well liked technical managers admitting their job is to be a shield to their team/abstraction layer to allow them ability to focus and explore appropriately while not being buffeted by contradictory direct commands and meetings - all while not ignoring them unduly either. Upper management was perfe…

But how often do people who do the work that brings in money (in this example, the people coding the project) get a fair share of that profit?

Define "fair". Surely the CEO is worth 800 times what any single coder is.

Re: Toxic Workers Are More Productive, But the Price Is High

#78

Post by diminoten »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #55
goodpoint wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> so easy for corrosive attitudes to spread citation needed

Lifetime of experience. If you have other observations, feel free to make them.

One person's experience is basically useless, statistically speaking.

Re: Toxic Workers Are More Productive, But the Price Is High

#79

Post by rahimnathwani »

"Toxic Workers Are More Productive"

Isn't this just an instance of Berkson's paradox? [0]

You might keep someone around because they're nice, or because they're productive. So if they're neither nice nor productive, then they wouldn't be hired/retained. So 100% of surviving not-nice people are productive, whereas the nice people is a mix of productive and non-productive people.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berkson%27s_paradox

Re: Toxic Workers Are More Productive, But the Price Is High

#80

Post by golergka »

goodpoint wrote: post #23
Symmetry wrote: post #10

This reminds me of a story about hen breeding: Selecting the hen who lays the most eggs doesn't necessarily get you the most efficient egg-laying metabolism. It may get you the most dominant hen, that pecked its way to the top of the pecking order at the expense of other hens. Individual selection doesn't necessarily work to the benefit of the group, but a farm's productivity is determined by group outputs. Indeed, f…

> the most dominant hen, that pecked its way to the top of the pecking order at the expense of other hens. Individual selection doesn't necessarily work to the benefit of the group but wait... our entire economical system is based on this.

Yes, because farm chickens and human societies are optimized for different things. We value only farm production and don't care about individual feelings of the chickets. In a society, however, we not only value the group effort, but also individual freedom and one's ability to freely compete with others.

There were a couple of leftist experiments when societies were managed like farms, but they are now considered atrocities.

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