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Nearly Half of US Female Scientists Leave Full-Time Science After First Child

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Re: Nearly Half of US Female Scientists Leave Full-Time Science After First Child

#111

Post by topmonk »

gboudrias wrote: post #29
therealforsen wrote: post #10

I have yet to be told why it is important for there to be as many women in STEM as men apart from statements that I'm sexist for not knowing

The closer your field's demographics are to your society's, the lower the risk of (unconscious) bias is. Science as a whole should strive to be as unbiased as possible, as that's the closest we can get to objectivity. The same logic applies to businesses, to reduce the risk of making mistakes that come with echo chambers.

In India there is a more equal split between women and men in the STEM fields, yet women are much less liberated then in Western countries. The reason being is that women there are forced to enter whatever career gives them the biggest paycheck, which happens to be STEM.

So, I'd say your assumption is incorrect.

Re: Nearly Half of US Female Scientists Leave Full-Time Science After First Child

#112

Post by jhanschoo »

educationdata wrote: post #90
jhanschoo wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What evidence do you have that current business practice that parent comment is facing and calling "sexist" is not sexist? Parent comment does not elaborate on the sexism she faces. You should be comfortable saying this only if you know that every aspect of current business practice is not sexist.

What evidence do you have that current business practice that parent comment is facing and calling "sexist" is not sexist? ~ Do you have any evidence showing single dads get better treatment than single moms?

> evidence showing single dads get better treatment than single moms?

This is not the question that needs to be shown; while parent comment is indeed a single mom, she cited sexism as the obstacle. This is not necessarily due to her particular circumstance as a single mom but may refer to discrimination that all women face.

Sexism is easier to show, due to the intense research on it. Not knowing a priori her experience, every year research comes out of some think tank about gendered discrimination in the workplace; a google search should return results.

Re: Nearly Half of US Female Scientists Leave Full-Time Science After First Child

#113

Post by topmonk »

redditmigrant wrote: post #34
therealforsen wrote: post #10

I have yet to be told why it is important for there to be as many women in STEM as men apart from statements that I'm sexist for not knowing

If you agree to the basic principle that scientific ability and thought is equally prevalent amongst men and women, having fewer women scientists means we are not getting and developing the best scientific minds. Having as many women as men also means a you girl doesnt think science is for boys only which again means we potentially miss out on good/great scientific minds purely because they self-select out. So if you…

IQ tests show there are a greater number of men with very high IQs than women, and scientific ability highly correlates with IQ, so your “basic principle” doesn't hold muster.

Re: Nearly Half of US Female Scientists Leave Full-Time Science After First Child

#114

Post by bobwaycott »

educationdata wrote: post #90
jhanschoo wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What evidence do you have that current business practice that parent comment is facing and calling "sexist" is not sexist? Parent comment does not elaborate on the sexism she faces. You should be comfortable saying this only if you know that every aspect of current business practice is not sexist.

What evidence do you have that current business practice that parent comment is facing and calling "sexist" is not sexist? ~ Do you have any evidence showing single dads get better treatment than single moms?

Single dad here. Not just some guy who isn't married and had kids. I've had custody for the better part of the last 15 years.

During my time as a single dad, I began my career in in programming. I started working for others. I now work for myself. In that time ...

- Zero female superiors have asked me on a date.

- Zero female coworkers have asked me on a date.

- Zero female coworkers have commented on or complimented my appearance--I'm no Brad Pitt, mind you, but I also don't look like someone took a hatchet to a picket fence. The closest I've gotten to a female commenting on my appearance is someone saying she thought I looked a little like Mark Wahlberg.

- Zero comments have ever been made when I've shown up late due to something kid-related (like school being delayed and dropping them off at school 2 hours later than normal).

- Zero comments have ever been made when I leave earlier than everyone else for something kid-related (like picking them up from school).

- Zero comments have ever been made when I've missed entire days due to something kid-related (like a kid being sick, or a school holiday (which I've always taken as work-from-home days so I could be with them)).

- Zero comments have ever been made when I've taken a break mid-day to attend a school function. I do the function, come back asap, and get back to work without a hiccup.

- I've never been asked if or how kids (or being a single parent) might impact my work.

- I demand a higher salary explicitly because I have kids to support, want to provide them a good life, and I have never had that questioned.

- I have never once been asked to compromise when I say I cannot do something because it conflicts with my parenting, my kids' activities, or something I've planned to do with them. When I say I have something to do with my kids, that ends the conversation, because I do not have a partner who can do these things and they know this.

- I have never once had a client question if my kids will get in the way of 6-figure contracts.

- I have never once had a client complain or ask me to compromise when I decline to do something or cannot get to something because it interferes with my kids or parenting.

- I've never been denied a raise when I've asked for it, despite the fact that I openly do not compromise my time with my kids.

- I have never been denied a promotion when I've sought after them, despite the fact that I openly do not compromise my time with my kids.

I could continue to dig deeper if you'd like.

Re: Nearly Half of US Female Scientists Leave Full-Time Science After First Child

#115

Post by [deleted] »

phil248 wrote: post #102
chimpburger wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the same reason its important for there to be as many women in mining, oil rigging, heavy industry, and forestry.

Are you being facetious? Obviously labor intensive work does not reap the same benefits from diversity of perspectives as scientific or creative fields.

[deleted]

Re: Nearly Half of US Female Scientists Leave Full-Time Science After First Child

#116

Post by chimpburger »

phil248 wrote: post #102
chimpburger wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the same reason its important for there to be as many women in mining, oil rigging, heavy industry, and forestry.

Are you being facetious? Obviously labor intensive work does not reap the same benefits from diversity of perspectives as scientific or creative fields.

Are you being facetious? How does science benefit from a diversity of genitalia? I'm not saying women should or shouldn't do this or that.. but the irrational compulsion to force equity between the sexes is stupid. Providing equal opportunity is good. Forcing equal outcome is evil.

Re: Nearly Half of US Female Scientists Leave Full-Time Science After First Child

#117

Post by mav3rick »

jriot wrote: post #99
buttcoinslol wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Somebody is going to point out that you and your wife made the decision to have children as well as having your wife stay at home with them instead of working, so it might as well be me. You made conscious decisions that excluded you from opportunities, sorry.

Seems to be the same for women here. It was their choice to have children thus leaving their field. Why do we care that not everyone is offered the same opportunities? Life isn't fair. Until I see women fighting to take on all the roles men have taken in life, Alaskan commercial fishermen, roughneck oil rig workers, loggers etc... and just not 1 or 2, equal representation throughout I am not concerned with unequal re…

"Why do we care that not everyone is offered the same opportunities? Life isn't fair."

Does that mean we live with the status quo ? Whether it's institutional racism, sexism or plain fascism, do we not fight against inequalities in society to make it better ? You're lucky to have 24x7 electricity and internet connection, you wouldn't be so gung ho about "Life isn't fair" if you couldn't sustain yourself.

"Until I see women fighting to take on all the roles men have taken in life, Alaskan commercial fishermen, roughneck oil rig workers, loggers etc... and just not 1 or 2, equal representation throughout I am not concerned with unequal representation in STEM, tech or any of the fashionable areas to be concerned with."

Who are you to gatekeep what they can or can't go in ? I guarantee you most middle class males also won't go for these jobs, demand is often governed by economic opportunities and right now services and software is ruling the roost. Who are you to decide these arbitrary standards for being eligible for "fashionable" sectors.

Re: Nearly Half of US Female Scientists Leave Full-Time Science After First Child

#118

Post by phil248 »

chimpburger wrote: post #116
phil248 wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you being facetious? Obviously labor intensive work does not reap the same benefits from diversity of perspectives as scientific or creative fields.

Are you being facetious? How does science benefit from a diversity of genitalia? I'm not saying women should or shouldn't do this or that.. but the irrational compulsion to force equity between the sexes is stupid. Providing equal opportunity is good. Forcing equal outcome is evil.

I believe what I said was that science benefits from a diversity of "perspectives".

But go on, rant against those straw men if it makes you feel better.

Re: Nearly Half of US Female Scientists Leave Full-Time Science After First Child

#119

Post by bobwaycott »

educationdata wrote: post #59
DoreenMichele wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't personally think it's necessarily important for there to be "as many women in STEM as men." But I do think those women who want to be there shouldn't be de facto run out by sexist practices. I was a full-time wife and mom for a lot of years. I don't self identify as a feminist. But, post divorce, I've found that sexism has been a real issue in establishing an adequate income to support myself and my sons. So…

I think you are wrong to claim current business practice as "sexist". Ideally, it would be nice for single parenting be as easy as traditional family, but in reality, nobody is entitled to easy life. Traditionally, people can also help each other through big family, church and other local communities. The new generation does not want to be involved in any of these. Now they want the government and their employers to…

> Traditionally, people can also help each other through big family, church and other local communities. The new generation does not want to be involved in any of these. Now they want the government and their employers to bear more responsibility to support their personal life.

This comment reeks of being an outsider who does not have the slightest clue what being a single parent is like.

Your notions of these "traditional" means of people helping each other are anchored in a past that does not strongly exist in many areas today.

- Big family => what if you don't have one of those? what if family is far away?

- Church => what if you're not religious? what if (gasp!) church isn't terribly fond of single parents--especially single mothers--and treat them in a way that denigrates their humanity because they happen to be unwed parents?

- Local communities => like what? single parent groups? homeless shelters? something else? Most of these kinds of communities offer emotional or social support in some degree--say, people you can talk to about the struggles of being a single parent--but they cannot help you put food on the table, provide clothing and shelter, or buy diapers. That's what having a job is for! Single parents don't want to wind up in a homeless shelter because they cannot afford to support their children.

I don't know what this new generation is in your eyes, but having been and known an awful lot of single parents over the last 15 years, I've never seen any of them want the government or their employers to bear responsibility to support their personal life. What they want is a fair shake at the job market, to be treated like everyone else, to have a bit of flexibility when their kids need it, and to never have their kids brought up as a liability in their employment lives. I've never seen a single parent believe they're entitled to an easy life. I've seen a lot of single parents struggle with navigating society and job markets that seem to want to ignore the reality of single parenthood.

Every single mother I've known has been hit on, asked on dates, had overt sexual advances made toward them physically and verbally--hey, she's a single mom, so you know she puts out, right?--had comments made toward them about their kids, experience a complete lack of flexibility when it comes to pay and schedule ... and a host of other things that directly contradict my own experience for 15 years as a single father. I think it's pretty fair to call out the inherent sexism in the general job market--and even in tech specifically. It's pretty ridiculous.

Re: Nearly Half of US Female Scientists Leave Full-Time Science After First Child

#120

Post by nuna »

belorn wrote: post #89
nuna wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you definitely sound it... its not so much about having the same number as it is about providing the same opportunities. If new moms had the same support, be it from family members and their communities, they would be less likely to leave their positions. Some things that would help in my opinion as a mother: affordable and accessible day care including back up care, at least 12 months maternity leave, flexible work…

Sweden made a government report on the teaching profession a few years ago and just like male dominated professions they found that the minority gender, men in this case, left the profession in a significant higher rate in ever stage from when they are a student to being a stable employee for decades. While the study did not look at newly parents, I would make the guess a similar effect but likely smaller since day c…

Interesting, whatever it is society has changed and we need to re-evaluate our culture, community and policies to accommodate
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