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Public protest against Amazon

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Re: Public protest against Amazon

#121
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to believe that. But I saw very close how an IT union was taken over by old school, corrupt fat union guys. And they just pander to the lowest common denominator. They go against meritocracy. I'd rather pay attention and vote with my feet.

"divided we fall" is a cliche but may have some merit here, especially if this will be filled by another starry eyed immigrant visa holder who can be treated as such. the information asymmetry gap is just too high imo. there's other opportunities for organizing labor that don't include old-school unions. screen actors' guild is one example that, e.g., mandates various "newer" members get roles on films and seems to b…

> screen actors' guild is one example that, e.g., mandates various "newer" members get roles on films and seems to be really well regarded. a guild could serve techies as well.

But does the profession of acting strive to be meritocratic as much as software development? It appears that fame (which is probably correlated with how good of an actor someone is, but probably only weakly) has a much bigger effect in acting.

Re: Public protest against Amazon

#122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"divided we fall" is a cliche but may have some merit here, especially if this will be filled by another starry eyed immigrant visa holder who can be treated as such. the information asymmetry gap is just too high imo. there's other opportunities for organizing labor that don't include old-school unions. screen actors' guild is one example that, e.g., mandates various "newer" members get roles on films and seems to b…

Agreed. But the fight to keep management in check shouldn't devolve into a fight to keep the union leaders in check. What's the guarantee that won't happen?

i don't know, my first reaction is introduce democratic elements to the system as opposed to seniority but perhaps that's been done.

"worst system but best we've had" and all that - at least labor would have a fighting chance

Re: Public protest against Amazon

#123

Amazon's leadership principles may have a lot to do with this. These must be memorized for any manager at Amazon and are part of the interview process. http://whartonmagazine.com/blogs/learn-from-amazons-leadersh... Choice quotes. "Leaders are right a lot." "Have Backbone; Disagree and Commit Leaders are obligated to respectfully challenge decisions when they disagree, even when doing so is uncomfortable or exhaustin…

Perhaps the principle was updated since the article was written, but the actual (current) description says, "Leaders are right a lot. They have strong judgment and good instincts. They seek diverse perspectives and work to disconfirm their beliefs." In other words, a leader can only be right a lot if they gather external data in order to undermine their preconceptions, but they do not get caught in analysis paralysis. I think that's a very well articulated principle, overall, regardless of how it manifests in the company culture.

Re: Public protest against Amazon

#124
Welcome to life in practically any large US corporation. Most employees will never complain to HR, they may need some routine services that HR provides and that’s the extent of their interaction. But there are a few who do complain. If these are peer-related complaints, HR will work with the employees managers to resolve the issue. But let’s say someone has a problem with their manager. Maybe no one else has complained about him before, or if so the complaints appear to be isolated incidents. Let’s say he has a lot of positive feedback from his peers, manager, and other subordinates.

Now you, the complainant, are the problem. And oh boy you have some special life circumstances - yikes, you are like a loaded bomb dropped in the lap of HR. They are not in any position of power, they can’t set the policy for your department (rightfully - they are not in the know), so your boss holds all the cards. HR won’t dig to the bottom of anything, and a manager is more important that a developer. At best it’s he-said-she-said and ignored, at worst you are shown the door after some minimal make nice by the company to avoid future liability.

I think it takes a strong top-down initiative to avoid cultural issues like this at an organization. At some place as large as Amazon there are bound to be isolated incidents but to all indications this behavior is, if not encouraged (in some cases it appears to be), not actively discouraged and is hence tacitly approved of at Amazon. I’ve seen what it takes to get a bad manager moved or fired by their subordinates - it requires an outright coup. Rarely does such a thing happen and it’s not guaranteed to succeed. Whereas, a conscientious and capable manager can walk in and straighten something like this out in fairly short order, with minimal drama.

Re: Public protest against Amazon

#125
I had a similar horror story from 2014-2015 Seattle Amazon. But I opted to quit rather than being subjected to further abuse.

I had a really bad manager whose name was Maulik Patel. He had the worst attributes you could ask for in a manager. Unsupportive, jaded, and emotionally draining. He kept threatening to fire me but never would...for something like 4 months until I said fuck it and quit. His main reasons were that I wasn't fast enough despite finishing the tickets in my sprints pretty much all the time. He had a vendetta against me for being hired to do the job he couldn't. He had flat files of libraries like jQuery and KnockoutJS and d3 committed into our repo. He used the synchronous ajax call flag to download language files...freezing every page for a quarter of a second. There was no way to upgrade all our libraries or fork them properly without undoing all of his mess.

I put us on Bower for web packages and rerolled everything. He was pissed about that. Pissed I fixed his mistakes. He would say things like I am level 4 so I need to pull tickets from the next sprint when I am done with the current sprint. Fundamentally he did not understand what role management had in planning and how to do it properly without antagonizing individual contributors.. Maulik attacked team members including me with qualitatives like slow and fast. He would spread his hands like he was showing a quantity and say you are here but need to here [moves hand higher.]

It was his first time as a manager. When I took the job Jeff Grote was actually signed on to be my manager..but Jeff pulled a bait and switch early into my start..sticking Maulik as a middle manager under himself. Coulda all been avoided if Jeff did me proper.

When I left I sent an email to the team explaining my grievances which I felt they deserved but which is for sure unprofessional. I probably shoulda went to HR but I had heard bad things about HR at large companies. Couldnt have been worse than not getting severence or unemployment. Live and learn... Care to share any similar stories? Would probably make me feel better to hear how someone else dealt with a bad manager scenario. If not its fine.

Here's an email I had sent to Jeff (his manager):

Jeff, I'm coming to you about Maulik's behavior. Literally, it's so bad that even when I come home, or I'm off on weekends, I'm thinking about how to deal with the guy. It's totally unsuitable for job satisfaction. My job satisfaction isn't even reflecting the tickets I do anymore, it's literally tarnished, shit on, by the passive-agressive comments Maulik makes on the regular, he usually sticks a smiley face at the end of his insults as if that makes them less offensive.

When I came onboard, the javascript and front-end workflow and ui, and code, were absolute chaos. I am not one to cry over spilled milk. I fixed 90% of it and did not insult Maulik, because I understand that it isnt productive to do so.

However, I don't know why Maulik feels the need to stomp on me for what amounts to the smallest kind of things. If you look at my ticket resolving rate, I'm like a speed demon, Ashley can vouch for this. So I'm getting my job done.

But either Maulik has a personality or managerial deficit, he is somewhat envious that I am doing a category of task right (front-end) that he only was shoddily able to do. Or he has no idea, is oblivious, and thinks his unelegant and critical behavior is conducive to being a good manager. And it isn't, I can tell you, based on my satisfaction and willingness to do good work. He's going against that with his continued vitriol.

For example, this timezone issue. He has 100 other issues to deal with. And he chooses to spend 20 minutes researching and finding a library (Which he may not have found...20 minutes could end up empty handed..) Just so he can trump me.

And it's a habit with Maulik. He ended up saying "This kind of reserach is what is expected from an Amazon engineer."

All too common for me to talk to him, and then he ends up using corporate culture rhetoric to crap on me. "Andrew, most people don't last long here. A lot of people get fired. Amazon culture, you need to learn it" Intimidation tactics, dismissal of my concerns, and basically abusing the idea of Amazon culture to avoid taking personal responsibility.

I really need you to step in here and deal with Maulik. He's a new manager and is showing it. A good manager is supposed to improve the teams efficiency, correct? He's actually making me not want to work, because of the amount of vitriol I get for performing well. It's anti-correlated. It's negative reinforcement.

Re: Public protest against Amazon

#126
post #23

It's funny how you often notice bullies getting promoted - is destruction of a low-level person a rite of passage for a middle manager to get ahead at many US corporations these days? I can imagine if they select for some dark-triad characteristics and going all-in, demonstrating cold/calculating/cruel moves while keeping paperwork clean signalizes the right person?

Bullies are often beneficial to the person they work under. That person can delegate unpleasant bullying-work to the bully and the bully will never bully his boss.

Agreed. Have seen plenty of 'kiss up, kick down' behavior at larger tech companies. It is at times amusing and a small break from the suffering to see the person transform rapidly during interactions with the kissee or the kickee in short order.

Re: Public protest against Amazon

#127

This really needs the second half of the story before we all get our trusty pitchforks and start making a shish-kebab from this Khan person.

The problem with this story is that it's more about an abusive boss at Amazon than Amazon. Any large company is going to have abusive individuals in it. I think the real issue this story illustrates is that when people are brought over on work visas they have no leverage with their employer. As an American citizen software engineer my boss knows that if I'm unhappy I will just leave. But the boss of someone on a work…

I saw a suggestion a while ago that the H1B1 visas should only be granted to the highest paid employees. The idea being that that they would be more likely to be essential to whatever business brought them in, so less likely to be the subject of abuse, and less likely to be abusing the h1b1 program to hire cheaper labor.

Re: Public protest against Amazon

#128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. But the fight to keep management in check shouldn't devolve into a fight to keep the union leaders in check. What's the guarantee that won't happen?

i don't know, my first reaction is introduce democratic elements to the system as opposed to seniority but perhaps that's been done. "worst system but best we've had" and all that - at least labor would have a fighting chance

> i don't know, my first reaction is introduce democratic elements to the system as opposed to seniority

Unions are almost invariably democratic; where seniority rules are adopted by a union (and this is far from universal), they tend to be adopted democratically,and not to replace democratic control of the union, so these are not opposed concepts.

Re: Public protest against Amazon

#130

Workers need unions, plain and simple. The addition of an impartial arbitrator at any step along this process could’ve helped so much.

Absolutely not.

We don't want union cruft within a hundred miles of tech.

It's already far too hard to shed incompetent people.

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