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“Reverse location” search warrants identify all cellphones near a crime scene

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Re: “Reverse location” search warrants identify all cellphones near a crime scene

#231
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>He noted that even if it did target the wrong person, "it doesn't mean they're going to get convicted or arrested, it just gives the detective a look at who could be involved." "Hmm, this black person was near..."

Ironic choice of examples, because lacking these tools, you've just identified the tool the police tend to fall back on. We can build algorithms to avoid racial bias, with awareness and effort. How confident are you we can train cops to do the same?

> We can build algorithms to avoid racial bias, with awareness and effort. How confident are you we can train cops to do the same?

How confident are you that we can build algorithms to do that? You can't just flatten the probability distribution based on race when many of the legitimate factors are correlated with it, any more than you could do so for gender or age or nationality. Unless you want an absurd false positive rate against octogenarian women from Japan.

But given that some racial (or gender or age) disparity is expected, how do you know if the amount of disparity in the algorithm's results is legitimate? It could be too high, or too low, and knowing which one would imply possession of an algorithm that gives the "true" amount, which was the original problem to begin with.

The answer is to require high standards of proof and conclusive evidence, so that it's impossible to choose a random innocent black man off the street and convict him of anything just because you're a racist or some algorithm decided he fit an aggregate profile.

But that's the opposite of the dragnet approach. You need evidence on a specific person, not statistical data from thousands that doesn't give you a better than 5% probability that it was any given one of them. And suppose the actual perpetrator wasn't carrying a phone at the time of the crime, so now you've got a list of "possible suspects" 100% of which are innocent.

Re: “Reverse location” search warrants identify all cellphones near a crime scene

#232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Funkzellenabfrage" - That's a great word. Is there a word describing the ability of the German language to condense English phrases into a single word? :)

I think this would come under "agglutination"[1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agglutination

One of my favorites was "Vorlesungsverzeichnis" (lecture directory/course catalog).

Vorlesung = lecture

- Lesung = a reading (like a book reading)/lesson

- add "Vor" ("before" as in "in front of [a group]") and it becomes Lecture

Verzeichnis = directory

- Zeichnis = symbol, signal, reference, sign

- add "Ver" (hard to really explain what it does) and it becomes directory, index, register, list

Re: “Reverse location” search warrants identify all cellphones near a crime scene

#233
post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always find comparisons to Nineteen Eighty-Four to be a [small] part of the problem. In Nineteen Eighty-Four, mass surveillance is allowed to exist because of the application of force (torture and murder). It's a dystopia founded in violence and oppression. We like to think things are like the book, because it paints us as victims. However, the truth is that, at best, we're complicit. This reality is explored in th…

> "This surveillance is allowed not because people are afraid to protest, but because they don't care (or rather, they care more about other [meaningless] things)." The People aren't getting honest and consistent news about such things. The Snowden revelations were met with what relatively amounted to crickets. Should people be more aware? Yes. Absolutely. However, the mainstream media driven system is designed to ma…

On the recent thread here about Google and Apple assisting with Saudis treating women as property, the thread OVERWHELMINGLY agreed that it was ok. It's not just the mainstream that has blinders on.

Re: “Reverse location” search warrants identify all cellphones near a crime scene

#234
post #102

> He noted that even if it did target the wrong person, "it doesn't mean they're going to get convicted or arrested, it just gives the detective a look at who could be involved." ...because no case has ever been so righteously pursued, with such a vigorous degree of righteous indignation, that an innocent person was ever thrown in prison[0], yeah? This blasé attitude about sweeping-up data of innocent people is preci…

All criminal investigations start with group of innocent people. That's the only way to investigate. Police collects data from security cameras, road cameras, credit card purchases, witnesses, and now from mobile service providers. I agree that privacy erosion is real, but you argument was not convincing.

> All criminal investigations start with group of innocent people. That's the only way to investigate.

Just the opposite. The investigation starts with the crime, not the suspect. Interview the victim and potential witnesses (none of which are required to talk to you), inspect the scene of the crime, collect physical evidence, etc.

You don't have any suspects until the evidence points to someone, and you only get to the point of credit card purchases and location data once you have a specific suspect. Then you should only get that person's credit card purchases or location data, not everybody else's.

Re: “Reverse location” search warrants identify all cellphones near a crime scene

#235

So essentially they asked for anonymised lists of phones (i.e. not even the actual numbers) that had been in the locations where the suspects had been, then cross-referenced these to find potential suspects, presumably finding some phones that exactly matched the reported movements of the suspects which they then made a second application to de-anonymise. Do people honestly think this is disproportionate for investig…

> So essentially they asked for anonymised lists of phones (i.e. not even the actual numbers) that had been in the locations where the suspects had been, then cross-referenced these to find potential suspects, presumably finding some phones that exactly matched the reported movements of the suspects which they then made a second application to de-anonymise.

In what conceivable way does that count as an "anonymised list?"

Suppose Google happens to sell geodata for everyone in your area of town to a third-party. Are you reassured if they tell you, "It's ok, we removed your phone numbers first."

Re: “Reverse location” search warrants identify all cellphones near a crime scene

#236
post #69
post #34

How often does someone carrying out a planned crime carry a phone with them that is switched on, these days? Use of mobile phone data by the police has been standard practice since 2001, at least, and widely publicised.

> How often does someone carrying out a planned crime carry a phone with them that is switched on, these days? Almost all of the time.

Do you have a source for that?

I read somewhere how the police once solved a crime by analysing a cigarette butt left behind in a stolen car, but within a few years it was quite common for them to find that a stolen car had its ashtray filled with cigarette butts apparently taken from a public ashtray: even joyriders were clever enough to thus outwit forensics. So it would seem weird to me if armed robbers or professional burglars were carrying switched on phones, and most crimes are committed by people who commit multiple crimes, as I understand it, people who have plenty of experience of how the police and the courts operate.

In online discussions there are always people who claim that criminals are idiots, but I don't think that's accurate. I reckon that when it comes to crime, most criminals are in effect a lot more intelligent than I am with my elite university degree and so on. But in general, the older I get, the more aware I become of my own limitations and the less likely I am to dismiss anyone else as an idiot.

Re: “Reverse location” search warrants identify all cellphones near a crime scene

#237
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>He noted that even if it did target the wrong person, "it doesn't mean they're going to get convicted or arrested, it just gives the detective a look at who could be involved." "Hmm, this black person was near..."

Ironic choice of examples, because lacking these tools, you've just identified the tool the police tend to fall back on. We can build algorithms to avoid racial bias, with awareness and effort. How confident are you we can train cops to do the same?

We can build algorithms to avoid racial bias

Can we? Those algorithms are built/trained by humans with biases - how can you be sure we can build/train AI to avoid those same biases?

Re: “Reverse location” search warrants identify all cellphones near a crime scene

#238
My concern with this sort of search is it could evolve to be used in a pretextual manner on small crimes.

"We have a reported flasher in this area, lets dump the cell phone record locations to find them. Oh looks, there are people with warrants that live in the area."

Re: “Reverse location” search warrants identify all cellphones near a crime scene

#239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's 1984 kafkaesque. The slowly-boiled frog deserves neither liberty nor safety. What the naïve fools don't grasp is anything they do or any information about them can be used to target them for arbitrary or deliberate police or political purposes. Oh and then there's the peer-pressure gaslighting of anyone pushing back on the "nothing to hide" mantra or pantopticon surveillance state. Ask them to live in glass hous…

This comment is unproductive and ridiculous. 1. Histrionic comparison to a dystopian novel. 2. Calling people who disagree with you "naive fools". 3. Evoking this category of "nothing to hide" strawmen. This information can only be attained by a warrant, and doesn't change the fact that you are tried before a judge, by a jury of your peers. Furthermore, Police are funded by local governments with locally elected offi…

> This information can only be attained by a warrant...

...and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Re: “Reverse location” search warrants identify all cellphones near a crime scene

#240
post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you familiar with this ? The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. Pretty sure "grab that pile of anonymous bits" isnt a proper d…

How do you expect a group of politicians from the 18th century to weigh in on the acceptability of this type of warrant? Even politicians from this century don't understand technology.

> How do you expect a group of politicians from the 18th century to weigh in on the acceptability of this type of warrant?

Because they lived through a time when blanket warrants were common and decided that they were not to be allowed in this new political framework?

--edit--

err, "general warrant" is what I meant to say...

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