Live data from Hacker News

China Unveils Plan to Tie Hong Kong, Macau Closer to Mainland

bloomberg.com

111–120 of 132 posts

Re: China Unveils Plan to Tie Hong Kong, Macau Closer to Mainland

#111
post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What realistic alternative would you have suggested to Thatcher at the time? Oh that's easy. Give every HKer a full British passport instead of creating an entirely new category of nationality, where they were still British Nationals, but not British Citizens. Then let in a token few thousand. Unforgivable. Would have given HKers a free choice, and done wonders for the UK economy.

Not easy at all, good luck getting it accepted by both the UK parliament and by Deng Xiaoping. People have this notion that the UK could do whatever they wanted in HK before 1997 (or at least before the negotiations with the PRC in the 1980s). But recently declassified documents revealed that the PRC was already pressuring the UK about HK affairs back in the 1950s.

They weakened status well before the joint agreement. Yet right after Tiananmen Square, and after the joint agreement, they managed to rapidly dream up a selection of 50k families, so they were also far from powerless to act without Deng Xiaoping's approval. Thousands of HKers were leaving after Tiananmen, to anywhere that would take them, so it's not like it would have deprived China of those citizens after 97 handover.

Re: China Unveils Plan to Tie Hong Kong, Macau Closer to Mainland

#112
post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's because the US (by this point) indisputably claimed one third of the world (The Monroe doctrine), whereas the UK was at the time more focused on being on the winning side of the European alliance system, then on making claims on American colonies. (Because it was afraid of an ascendant Germany. Fear of Germany was also the biggest driver for entering into an alliance with France.) In the inter-war years, the U…

You misunderstand the Monroe Doctrine. It was a policy of anti-colonialism in Latin America, supporting independent states free from European rule. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monroe_Doctrine

You misunderstand the implementation of the Monroe Doctrine.

The optics of it were anti-colonial. The implementation of it was absolutely colonial. This is one of the many baffling contradictions of America.

Central and South American states were only allowed to be independent of European rule. They were, and continue to, be client states of Washington. When they forget this, they get regime-changed.

America's 19th and 20th century adventures in Hawaii, the Philippines, Samoa, Cuba, Puerto Rico, the annexation of Mexico's territories, and deportation and repression of native Americans were all colonial power grabs - and all performed under the aegis of the Monroe Doctrine.

This is the fundamental difference between the British Empire of yesteryear, and the American empire of today. The British public was never confused as to whether or not it was at the head of a globe-spanning empire.

Re: China Unveils Plan to Tie Hong Kong, Macau Closer to Mainland

#113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Driving rates are pretty low in HK and Macau because the cost of car ownership is so high (namely, the cost of a parking space) and public transit/taxis are so good. So I don’t think you’d get much pushback from actual drivers.

Private car drivers don't have votes anyway so even if there's pushback the governments don't care. The taxis, logistics and trucking industries do have political clout, though, and they will be the ones pushing back.

Logistics and trucking involve a lot of cross border trips. I don't know that they would mind all that much.

Re: China Unveils Plan to Tie Hong Kong, Macau Closer to Mainland

#114
post #107
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not only do you have BRI but massive internment camps, massively expensive surveillance systems, massive number of police officers, expensive great firewall. Look China is at war. It's just at war internally and spending a lot of money on it. This internal war is likely more expensive then USA's many foriegn misadventures. Thus China needs to go to Hong Kong to use their money and connections. China has no choice.

Even including the internment camps, the US still has the largest per-capita prison population in the world. The UK has, for many years, had the most extensive physical surveillance system in the world, with the NSA having one of the more extensive digital surveillance systems.[1] The Department of Defense employs 3.2 million people, 2.2 million of which are military (Active and otherwise). US police forces employ an…

No doubt we need to get out of endless wars. It seems easier said then done. As soon as President Trump tried to get out of Syria there was a huge backlash from Government insiders. Eventually China will block the South China Sea trade routes and because we are over-extending ourselves we may find ourselves powerless against it.

Re: China Unveils Plan to Tie Hong Kong, Macau Closer to Mainland

#115
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's unavoidable actually. Basically US just begins to treat China as an eligible opponent. There were never "friendly" relationships between two superpowers in history if I remember correctly.

There were, up to a point. France and the UK carved up several continents without much tension, after 1850 or so. Provided that China becomes less authoritarian and the US doesn't do something stupid, it's not impossible for both to coexist, while still competing.

Why would China become less authoritarian? They can continue to grow and gain power without doing so.

Re: China Unveils Plan to Tie Hong Kong, Macau Closer to Mainland

#116

Interestingly the plan mandates the use of IPv6 pretty much everywhere, as well as FTTH to all homes in all cities across the PRD. It doesn't give the reason why these specific technologies are mentioned in what's meant to be a strategic plan though.

I would bet the reason it was mentioned was to make China sound technologically advanced. Similar to when they spread the lie about being a leader in green technology around when the Olympics were hosted there. They established faux solar panels on street lights and then took them back down 2 years later. There's no reason to believe China about that detail or anything really.

Re: China Unveils Plan to Tie Hong Kong, Macau Closer to Mainland

#117
post #65
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

>Secondly, even if Trump followed through on his blusters, China is well aware that following through on them is also costly to the U.S. and even to Trump's base (e.g. soy farmers), so they can discount the risk considerably. What are you even talking about? Trump imposed hefty tariffs on Chinese goods a year ago. US Soy exports to China, previously their biggest market, also collapsed last year after being hit with…

I didn't said it would never happen, just that China has enough leverage to stand their ground. Which is exactly what happened. Indeed, reports from the end of January are that the U.S. is floating lifting all tariffs for the remainder of negotiations. Are we supposed to believe that such a move would be merciful? (Remember, my original point was that China has no reason to feel isolated or threatened.)

Most people assume that China needs the U.S. market more than the U.S. needs the Chinese market. But that thinking is about 15 years out of date. The reality is that exports as a percentage of GDP have plummeted in China from a high of 36% to about 18%:

  https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NE.EXP.GNFS.ZS?locations=CN-US
  https://economic-research.bnpparibas.com/Views/DisplayPublication.aspx?type=document&IdPdf=30895
Whereas exports as a percentage of GDP in the U.S. have been steadily increasing and are at about 10% now. (Also, less than 1/5 of Chinese exports go to the U.S., so their exposure to U.S. import tariffs is want a more consumer driven domestic economy. (People on HN in particular should appreciate why trajectory matters.) All of these things combined mean that China is negotiating with the U.S. from a position of strength. Not necessarily stronger than the U.S., but also not weaker. Our posturing and our aggressive negotiating tactics simply make us look naive.

Many of the concessions China has made and will make are changes that were inevitable. And this is why previous administrations, Republican and Democratic alike, avoided the populist politicking of the current administration--it would require expending considerable American good will for de minimis benefit. The China "problem" was already well on its way to fixing itself. The cold, hard truth, though is that there aren't any great ways to improve America's domestic low-skill manufacturing base without losing elsewhere (i.e. farming exports, high-margin service exports, or cheap imports that subsidize our standard of living). The China problem will simply become the Vietnam problem, the Myanmar problem, ad naseum, and as the U.S. economy continues to shrink relative to the global economy, we have less and less power to extract concessions that allow us to avoid coming to terms with our real domestic issues.

Another cold, hard truth is that our deficit spending is the flip side to our current account deficit. China comprehends that at least as well as we do, and apparently much better than advocates of the recent tax reform measure which exploded our deficits.[1] That provides yet more leverage for China. All the bluster in the world can't surmount economic fundamentals, as every populist demagogue (like Hugo Chavez) eventually discovers. But reality doesn't prevent demagogues from selling the public fantasies about geopolitical "wins" or from hiding behind manufactured excuses.

[1] And lest you think I'm partisan, I also think single-payer healthcare is fiscal suicide. If we can't make Obamacare work (politically, fiscally) then there's zero chance we can make single-payer work. (I do think Obamacare is salvageable if we tried, but in any event it's already at the outer edge of what's feasible as a practical matter.)

Re: China Unveils Plan to Tie Hong Kong, Macau Closer to Mainland

#118
post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not easy at all, good luck getting it accepted by both the UK parliament and by Deng Xiaoping. People have this notion that the UK could do whatever they wanted in HK before 1997 (or at least before the negotiations with the PRC in the 1980s). But recently declassified documents revealed that the PRC was already pressuring the UK about HK affairs back in the 1950s.

They weakened status well before the joint agreement. Yet right after Tiananmen Square, and after the joint agreement, they managed to rapidly dream up a selection of 50k families, so they were also far from powerless to act without Deng Xiaoping's approval. Thousands of HKers were leaving after Tiananmen, to anywhere that would take them, so it's not like it would have deprived China of those citizens after 97 hando…

There's a big difference between accepting 50k and 5million people, on both the British and the Chinese side.

Re: China Unveils Plan to Tie Hong Kong, Macau Closer to Mainland

#119
post #107
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not only do you have BRI but massive internment camps, massively expensive surveillance systems, massive number of police officers, expensive great firewall. Look China is at war. It's just at war internally and spending a lot of money on it. This internal war is likely more expensive then USA's many foriegn misadventures. Thus China needs to go to Hong Kong to use their money and connections. China has no choice.

Even including the internment camps, the US still has the largest per-capita prison population in the world. The UK has, for many years, had the most extensive physical surveillance system in the world, with the NSA having one of the more extensive digital surveillance systems.[1] The Department of Defense employs 3.2 million people, 2.2 million of which are military (Active and otherwise). US police forces employ an…

BUT WHAT ABOUT.....!?

Re: China Unveils Plan to Tie Hong Kong, Macau Closer to Mainland

#120
post #67
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> Firstly, nobody in the international community takes Trump at his word (he's a notorious liar who also follows a wholly transparent negotiating playbook, one that he's spent decades advertising). There is a theory that the Sun clan's "art of war" was intentionally disseminated among its enemies, to make them more willing to yield to negotiations, and make their maneuvers more systematised, and predictable at war. S…

[deleted]
Post reply on HN