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Four-day week trial: study finds lower stress but no cut in output

theguardian.com

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Re: Four-day week trial: study finds lower stress but no cut in output

#111

Post by toomuchtodo »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #108
1337biz wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the thing - this works only when you have clearly task - solution based jobs. But when it is more creative and abstract this is not feasable.

Oh, but it is. With one of my customers, I had a week when I consistently reported "designing the new model for $thing-that-drives-our-product", sometimes additionally with "and I spend some time talking with $product-guy and $coworker about the design". As a side effect of the design process, I produced a bunch of concept documents and drawings, which once the overall goal was clear, I transformed into barebones int…

> A good manager will accept your vague description

> As long as you actually deliver, a sane manager will not mind.

The problem is that these are very rare.

EDIT: If anything, the problem may be that the "bad manager" doesn't trust you. (Yes)

Re: Four-day week trial: study finds lower stress but no cut in output

#112

Post by TeMPOraL »

wgerard wrote: post #85
1337biz wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the thing - this works only when you have clearly task - solution based jobs. But when it is more creative and abstract this is not feasable.

I'm really struggling to think of creative and abstract jobs that meet all of the following criteria: 1) Take place in a typical corporate setting--which is the context here, nobody's asking studio musicians to do stand-ups. 2) Have 0 artifacts of progress being made. Even brand design goes through iterations. 3) Are so abstract that it's impossible to distill your thought process into a small summary each day If it'…

"Big design up front" rarely works, even in abstract terms. I've learned that your point 2) is crucial - you have to force yourself to build "artifacts of progress" for actual progress to happen! Maybe there are some geniuses who can build whole programs completely in their heads, but my mind starts to run in circles if I try that. Whether drawings, prototypes, or just stream-of-thought notes, just continuously getting things out of my head speeds working a lot for me - and all of these can be turned into a summary of what I did today.

Re: Four-day week trial: study finds lower stress but no cut in output

#113

Post by Bartweiss »

dalbasal wrote: post #78
have_faith wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If my job was easy to measure I would be paid on my outcomes instead of being paid to be at work. If I was being paid for my outcomes I would manage my time entirely differently and would find ways of being more productive than I already am so that I could work less hours. I think this is a hard pill for people's bosses to swallow, that their employees do have the capacity to be more productive but they won't because…

Yep... typical Schrodinger's product evangelist troubles. I'd make a third distinction though. You can be paid for time, work or outcomes. Outcomes and work aren't the same thing, necessarily.

> You can be paid for time, work or outcomes.

And all three have uses. It seems like one of the common mistakes we make when talking about labor productivity is underestimating time as an output. We see a job's time-per-task decline and ask why it remains a full-time job, but in many cases the answer is that part of the job is being available 8 hours a day, and more dead time between tasks hasn't changed that.

Re: Four-day week trial: study finds lower stress but no cut in output

#114

Post by TeMPOraL »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #111
TeMPOraL wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, but it is. With one of my customers, I had a week when I consistently reported "designing the new model for $thing-that-drives-our-product", sometimes additionally with "and I spend some time talking with $product-guy and $coworker about the design". As a side effect of the design process, I produced a bunch of concept documents and drawings, which once the overall goal was clear, I transformed into barebones int…

> A good manager will accept your vague description > As long as you actually deliver, a sane manager will not mind. The problem is that these are very rare. EDIT: If anything, the problem may be that the "bad manager" doesn't trust you. (Yes)

Well, I guess set up the bait by using the phrase "good manager".

Maybe I'm lucky, but for all the failings of various people I've worked under, I've met none who wouldn't understand it when some work requires more cognitive effort than code.

If anything, the problem may be that the "bad manager" doesn't trust you. But that's a completely different issue than them not understanding the concept of abstract work.

Re: Four-day week trial: study finds lower stress but no cut in output

#115

Post by dv_dt »

znq wrote: post #4

At Mobile Jazz (7 years old now) and Bugfender (4-5 years old now) we always had the rule, that people could choose to work as much as they want and when they went. As long as the output and quality was there. Obviously to achieve high quality output you need to be there at certain times (overlap with other team members) and you need to do a certain amount of hours. The problems we had because of this are almost no-e…

I think without systematic backstops to keep it below a certain number of hours there's a big risk to slide into more and more hours. Esp if you hire on someone who might visibly work a lot and get visibily rewarded for it - it puts a subtle pull on the group as a whole.

Re: Four-day week trial: study finds lower stress but no cut in output

#116

Post by nemesisj »

We work a 4 Day, 32 hour week, and have done so since 2015. During that time, our team grew from a small office of ~20 in Edinburgh to where we are today (3 offices in Edinburgh Scotland, Bozeman USA, and Beirut Lebanon) with about 80 people.

We have consistently been one of the fastest growing tech companies in Scotland (and in the UK). When we implemented the 4 day policy, we didn’t change our financial targets, or our team metrics. Instead, we explained it was an experiment that we wanted to run, and we believed that by being more efficient and more intentional about how we worked, we could still achieve our goals.

Turned out that was true.

Our motivation was primarily work/life balance, but also the realisation that most startups take 10-15 years to get to where they want to go, and we have a long journey ahead of us! It’s a marathon, not a sprint. We still pay a 5 day wage, and we actually “buy” all 5 days, because we wanted to make sure that team members weren’t tempted to moonlight on the 5th day.

Overall I think it’s been a really great thing for our team, and perhaps most importantly, I think we’ve proved that ambitious goals, hard work, and a strong drive to succeed is not at odds with a 4 day week. Over the last few years we’ve spent probably hundreds of hours talking with various organisations and the media about the benefits of the 4 day week, and I’m hopeful it’ll continue to catch on more and more.

Re: Four-day week trial: study finds lower stress but no cut in output

#117

Post by williamdclt »

nemesisj wrote: post #116

We work a 4 Day, 32 hour week, and have done so since 2015. During that time, our team grew from a small office of ~20 in Edinburgh to where we are today (3 offices in Edinburgh Scotland, Bozeman USA, and Beirut Lebanon) with about 80 people. We have consistently been one of the fastest growing tech companies in Scotland (and in the UK). When we implemented the 4 day policy, we didn’t change our financial targets, or…

1. how did you start the experiment? Did you apply it to everybody from the start or did you run it on a small sample?

2. What do you mean "buy all 5 days" and "moonlight on the 5th day"? (not a native speaker)

Re: Four-day week trial: study finds lower stress but no cut in output

#118

Post by darepublic »

znq wrote: post #4

At Mobile Jazz (7 years old now) and Bugfender (4-5 years old now) we always had the rule, that people could choose to work as much as they want and when they went. As long as the output and quality was there. Obviously to achieve high quality output you need to be there at certain times (overlap with other team members) and you need to do a certain amount of hours. The problems we had because of this are almost no-e…

Yeah but this policy is not that helpful if high quality output is demanded at a fast rate. The same situation that forces someone to work overtime in a 5 day week is still present.

Re: Four-day week trial: study finds lower stress but no cut in output

#119

Post by jodrellblank »

wool_gather wrote: post #81
1337biz wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the thing - this works only when you have clearly task - solution based jobs. But when it is more creative and abstract this is not feasable.

You should still be able to recount what you did , past tense. "This morning I sketched out three different possibilities for the new client check-in service. First draft of the spec is in progress, I expect to send it over to Jen and Andy tomorrow for their feedback." "I made a dozen or so mockups for the new landing page. I have a couple more ideas I want to try out tomorrow, then I'll figure out what the best four…

That sure sounds like a day of productive work or a day of doing nothing being covered over with some made up fluff. One or the other.

Re: Four-day week trial: study finds lower stress but no cut in output

#120

Post by nemesisj »

williamdclt wrote: post #117
nemesisj wrote: post #116

We work a 4 Day, 32 hour week, and have done so since 2015. During that time, our team grew from a small office of ~20 in Edinburgh to where we are today (3 offices in Edinburgh Scotland, Bozeman USA, and Beirut Lebanon) with about 80 people. We have consistently been one of the fastest growing tech companies in Scotland (and in the UK). When we implemented the 4 day policy, we didn’t change our financial targets, or…

1. how did you start the experiment? Did you apply it to everybody from the start or did you run it on a small sample? 2. What do you mean "buy all 5 days" and "moonlight on the 5th day"? (not a native speaker)

Good questions!

1. We started by doing some research, actually - I spent some time finding studies that supported my thesis that productivity would go up (thus making sure our output would stay the same, more or less). Then I discussed with our management team, who thought I was nuts, but was supportive. Then I presented it to our board, who was also supportive. We applied it to everyone at the start, but some teams took a bit longer to get it implemented, as one of our criteria was he had to maintain 5 day coverage for our customers (ie, some have Mondays off, some have Fridays, etc.). To this day we leave the coverage patterns and rotations up to each team/department to decide.

2. In our contracts, we are paying you for 40 hours of work, 5 days a week, but we give you one of them back. Moonlighting meaning working for another company "on the side".

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