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A faster, more efficient cryptocurrency

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Re: A faster, more efficient cryptocurrency

#501

I'm shocked and disheartened by how infrequently environmental concerns are brought up when discussing crypto. Proof of Work vs Proof of Stake, security, storage size - these are problems for the network and those that want to see it become a real part of our economy. (I am one of those) But the amount of energy being used to mine bitcoin is a real problem - it's not just a technical challenge (like the problems abov…

In the greater scheme of things, how much energy use is mining bitcoin responsible for? 0.000000000001% of the world's energy use? I used to be very skeptical of bitcoin and cryptocurrency, but I'm even more skeptical of the recent anti-crypto propaganda all over social media. 3 years ago, crypto was going to save the world. Now, we are talking about environment? What gives? What's with the relentless anti-crypto pro…

Around 0.02% according to Wikipedia. It’s not nothing.

Re: A faster, more efficient cryptocurrency

#502

I'm shocked and disheartened by how infrequently environmental concerns are brought up when discussing crypto. Proof of Work vs Proof of Stake, security, storage size - these are problems for the network and those that want to see it become a real part of our economy. (I am one of those) But the amount of energy being used to mine bitcoin is a real problem - it's not just a technical challenge (like the problems abov…

In the greater scheme of things, how much energy use is mining bitcoin responsible for? 0.000000000001% of the world's energy use? I used to be very skeptical of bitcoin and cryptocurrency, but I'm even more skeptical of the recent anti-crypto propaganda all over social media. 3 years ago, crypto was going to save the world. Now, we are talking about environment? What gives? What's with the relentless anti-crypto pro…

Bitcoin is currently estimated to be responsible for ~0.21%, more than either Hong Kong or Iraq use [1]. Criticisms of Bitcoin have been around as long as the hype - cryptocurrencies were never going to save the world.

[1]: https://digiconomist.net/bitcoin-energy-consumption

Re: A faster, more efficient cryptocurrency

#503

A "faster, more efficient cryptocurrency" is already in productive operation since 2015. Called "Nano" https://nano.org/en

Unless you're willing to provide information about the tech and how it is better than algorand or coda, I see your comment as just promotion scam.

Nano basically just uses a block lattice, which looks like a blockchain for each individual user. Blocks are broadcasted across the network and confirmed when you receive the block, and ask the representatives to vote on if the block is legit. Representatives are chosen by users, with the reps having the highest Nano backing being chosen. This gives a network setup where once the block is broadcasted, asking the peer if it's good is the only delay. There is a small PoW on each block, which is to stop blocks from being spammed against the network (however it can be precomputed..)

Disclaimer: built some apps on top of Nano, decently pleasant experience. I keep up a bit with the development of the node software.

Re: A faster, more efficient cryptocurrency

#504
> Design reduces by 99 percent the data users need to join the network and verify transactions.

Is this enough? I'm guessing that if bitcoin would grow to support even 1% of global payments, that 99% performance increase is not going to cut it.

Re: A faster, more efficient cryptocurrency

#505

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The stake in the network. Each transaction is validated by representatives whose votes are proportional to their stake in the network. An attacker would need to gain 50% of the network value to be able to do some damage.

You are not answering the question.

Users with high stakes generally want the network to run so their stakes aren't worthless. At least, that's the theory behind PoS.

Re: A faster, more efficient cryptocurrency

#506
post #456

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nano claims to do it in action. So do others. Some of them might even be proven right, the vast majority will not, so acting like it's some kind of trivial solved problem is disingenuous. Ethereum's PoS has been in development for years and there is still no consensus that it will be a better mechanism than PoW.

> acting like it's some kind of trivial solved problem is highly disingenuous I said it's possible. I didn't say it was easy. That said, PoW on a small scale is an interesting experiment. On a large scale, it's a horrible way of allocating energy usage. So while the databases running on PoW are working , they are a stupid waste of energy. I welcome any alternative.

That's like saying space travel is a stupid waste of energy because it costs more than driving. Some things are expensive, sometimes they get cheaper. In the meantime if you want to get to Mars you either buy the proven rocket or the cheap one.

Re: A faster, more efficient cryptocurrency

#507

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not missing the point, you're moving the goalposts You: "the banking system is idiotically expensive using much more raw energy" Me: "it uses much more raw energy because it services the financial needs of most of the planet".

No goalposts have moved. Banking system involves politics and military in securing your finances. It is therefore many orders of magnitude more expensive than bitcoin even if you normalize by market cap of transaction volume or pick your own metric. Edit: typos

You’ve missed a few steps in your "therefore" there.

Re: A faster, more efficient cryptocurrency

#508

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I agree that the valuation can rapidly fluctuate. Bitcoin is successfully storing a large amount of value in a distributed manner. More than any other system that exists. There is a huge incentive to create transaction fraud with that much money on the line and Bitcoin is working and intended and acting as a distributed, transaction fraud free public ledger with a trade-able currency.

> "Bitcoin is successfully storing a large amount of value in a distributed manner. More than any other system that exists." No it isn't. The market cap of bitcoin, which is a bullshit number anyway as already explained, is dwarfed by other forms of distributed wealth storage such as (but certainly not limited to) old fashioned pieces of gold . Gold is distributed. If you revise your assertion to be distributed and d…

Both gold and real estate require massive amount of physical force to secure. Nation state level force and law and order.

Bitcoin just needs electricity.

Re: A faster, more efficient cryptocurrency

#509

I'm shocked and disheartened by how infrequently environmental concerns are brought up when discussing crypto. Proof of Work vs Proof of Stake, security, storage size - these are problems for the network and those that want to see it become a real part of our economy. (I am one of those) But the amount of energy being used to mine bitcoin is a real problem - it's not just a technical challenge (like the problems abov…

Bitcoin does use a lot of electricity, exactly how much is hard to judge, most of the shock headlines seem to trace their way back to Alex De Vries who uses some questionable assumptions. He seems to calculate the energy use by taking the price of BitCoin and guessing how much profit is being made by miners and how much they pay for electricity.

Nevertheless it is safe to assume that the energy use is significant, even at half or a tenth of Digiconomist estimates it is still quite large. It is broadly true that the energy use of Bitcoin is related to the value of Bitcoin, via the mining reward.

The arguments against the energy use that are based upon the merits of Bitcoin are not valid. If Bitcoin is useless and doomed it stands to reason that the energy consumed is a waste, but that is true of anything. To argue specifically against the energy consumption you have to make the case that it is not worth the cost even if Bitcoin is a success.

If you assume that the costs and profit for mining are more-or-less static then the mining network will use roughly the same amount of energy if Bitcoin doubles in value every reward halving. That flattens out to about a 20% increase in value every year. To accept that the energy use will continue at this rate you would have to also accept that Bitcoin will increase in value at that rate. To date Bitcoin _has_ increased in value quicker than that, which is why the energy use has grown so high. Hardly anyone would argue that the increase in value will be sustained perpetually. If just holds its value the mining reward and power consumption will reduce accordingly. If Bitcoin ends up worth pennies, the consumption will be minima.

Furthermore, Bitcoin mining adds options to _how_ electricity is generated and consumed. Being able to convert electricity into money not only acts as a stimulus for cheaper energy generation but as a motivator for building new capacity. We are already at a point where Solar and Wind are becoming the choice not only for Environmental but also Economic reasons. Any new power plant needs customers, those customers take time to appear. If a power plant sold excess generation at cost to mining facilities the investment required to build a new plant is greatly reduced. This presents the possibility of developing nations introducing power generation to areas that currently have little or none.

If Bitcoin did end up stimulating the increase of carbon neutral capacity and efficiency, then people in the future might end up making the argument that Bitcoin ended up carbon negative.

Re: A faster, more efficient cryptocurrency

#510
post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If no fees, what are the incentives to accept transactions in a block?

Also, what stops you from spamming the network?

A small PoW on each block, however for some reason it can be precomputed which allows you to precompute a spam attack (which has happened from the CEO of BrainBlocks recently..)

It's an interesting issue, although it's a good question if it is possible to stop network spam. Bitcoin's solution to network spam is to limit the amount of transactions and charge a fee, with the fee going up the higher the demand for a transaction.

I don't see this setup working with Nano, as much of the protocol is designed around not having fees. After all, deciding who gets the fees and splitting it (among top representatives?) causes even more processing on the network.

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