What It's Like to Be a Black Mathematician • Hacker News Board

Re: What It's Like to Be a Black Mathematician

#101

Post by dang » Mon, Feb 18, 2019, 8:32 PM UTC

willpiers wrote: post #86

sctb wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19193568 .

why? I don't mind being downvoted, and I enjoy reading the responses. Is it infringing on peoples' safe spaces?

Because if you toss off a low-information provocation in an inflammatory thread, that's trolling whether you meant to or not. (But indulging in an in-your-face phrase like "safe spaces" makes me think that maybe you did mean to.)

The result tends to be flamewar. Flamewars are equal parts dumb and predictable. Also, we're trying for this place not to turn into scorched earth.

Re: What It's Like to Be a Black Mathematician

#102

Post by helen___keller » Mon, Feb 18, 2019, 8:33 PM UTC

ericdykstra wrote: post #48

mLuby wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, doesn't the madness stop once the identity breakdown in a given field roughly matches the identity in the general population? If X% of people are Black, I would expect given no structural impediments that roughly X% of Mathematicians would also be Black. The how to get there in the quickest and fairest way is a political question.

This is baseless, unscientific blank-slateism, and isn't true anywhere in the world among any demographic segment in any measure. If 10% of Singaporean men are gay would you expect 10% of male plumbers in Singapore to be gay? If women are 30% of the workforce in Canada, would you expect Canadian dental assistants to be 70% male? Disparate outcomes doesn't imply unfair treatment.

"given no structural impediments" is the keyword - without any structural impediments, all your examples should be true.

Structural impediments aren't inherently unfair - for example, if gay men simply prefer not to be a plumber for some unknown reason, that is enough to say that there is a structural impediment for gay Singoporean plumbers, and there doesn't have to be anything unfair about that.

On the other hand, sometimes structural impediments are immoral and should be rectified. If a whole bunch of gay singoporean men wanted to be plumbers, but weren't allowed to enter the profession as a result of laws against their sexual orientation, that would be an unfair treatment and action should be taken to fix the unfair treatment.

With this in mind, we KNOW that minority populations have been very negatively affected for MANY generations from legal discrimination, which directly caused poverty. It is also widely accepted that family wealth is strongly correlated with success academically, and it is widely accepted that success academically is strongly correlated with socio-economic mobility.

Thus, the basis for affirmative action is that there is a moral burden to rectify structural impediments that are a legacy of legal racism, and that helping oppressed minorities get an education in spite of their circumstances helps propagate the socio-economic mobility that education enables.

You can disagree with many parts of this chain of logic. Perhaps higher education doesn't really help socio-economic mobility. Perhaps the moral burden should not be on universities to rectify past mistreatments. Perhaps you believe there is no moral burden to take action to rectify the legacy of last generations' (and all previous generations') racism & sexism. Maybe you even believe that the absurd underrepresentation of minorities and women in certain fields that were historically limited to white men is not at all tied to said historical oppression but simply due to preference or other factors considered acceptable.

However, examining underrepresentation is not baseless or unscientific, whether or not you agree with the conclusions.

Re: What It's Like to Be a Black Mathematician

#103

Post by lotaezenwa » Mon, Feb 18, 2019, 8:33 PM UTC

python_gt_r wrote: post #95

lotaezenwa wrote: post #44

This mathematician is not stupid. I would be inclined to believe he understands statistics/anecdotes/academia better than you reading this right now. We only get a small glimpse into the intricacies of his world view and life, and this is what he has chosen to share. This is the story he is telling. Ask yourself why someone in this position would tell this story based on years of lived experience. Do you believe him?…

Also by definition, judgement biases underlying racism are common across people. There's no more racism in whites or republicans, rationalization is different. Splitting the world in racist and no racist is simplistic and poor argumentation.

> by definition judgement[sic] biases underlying racism are common across people

0) We never agreed on the definition of "judgment biases", so please do not use the phrase "by definition". Your definition differs from mine.

Re: What It's Like to Be a Black Mathematician

#104

Post by tptacek » Mon, Feb 18, 2019, 8:34 PM UTC

stcredzero wrote: post #83

tyler- wrote: post #23

People from poor demographics in general are discriminated against in various ways. Want to learn math but come from a poor neighborhood? Good luck. You’re probably locked in a school system with bad teachers and few if any math courses beyond calculus. Even if you’re talented you probably know 0 people that can help you. Now your growth is prematurely stunted. That kid from a better off family that shows talent in m…

Want to learn math but come from a poor neighborhood? Good luck. You’re probably locked in a school system with bad teachers and few if any math courses beyond calculus. I've read and listened to a number of accounts about how peers in poor neighborhoods are the biggest barrier to academic achievement. Even if you’re talented you probably know 0 people that can help you. Now your growth is prematurely stunted. Or wor…

Hold on, let me catch up here: your poor-neighborhood peers tell you you're "sexually inadequate" and therefore you go on to not be a mathematician? Can you connect those dots for me?

Re: What It's Like to Be a Black Mathematician

#105

Post by 8bitsrule » Mon, Feb 18, 2019, 8:35 PM UTC

tyler- wrote: post #23

People from poor demographics in general are discriminated against in various ways. Want to learn math but come from a poor neighborhood? Good luck. You’re probably locked in a school system with bad teachers and few if any math courses beyond calculus. Even if you’re talented you probably know 0 people that can help you. Now your growth is prematurely stunted. That kid from a better off family that shows talent in m…

Yes. A child's environment (social stability, economic, opportunity, attitudes towards education) is key for how well-prepared s/he is for college work (particularly for someone aiming for an academic position). Because of their limited opportunities before college, they have to work much harder in their major as well as in electives courses.

It's far from heart-breaking to hear the privileged grumble about such successes. In the system as it exists, only the extremely talented from poor, or racist, or rural environments stand a chance.

Re: What It's Like to Be a Black Mathematician

#106

Post by 0815test » Mon, Feb 18, 2019, 8:35 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #98

0815test wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A mathematics PhD is going to be in the far right tail of aptitude for a lot of relevant skills. This is the admittedly very rare case where altogether tiny differences in "inherent" ability will get amplified to the point where they actually start to matter - whatever "inherent" might mean, in the first place! Yup, crucially, even differences that are generally understood as "not inherent" can be so hard to address…

You understand that the perception that you're looking at someone's skin color or facial features, making a prediction as to whether they ingested lead paint as a child, and then acting accordingly is going to be problematic, right?

But of course no one sane is doing anything of the sort. The issue is how to explain the difference between "% of people with visible feature X in the general population" and "% of folks with feature X who happen to be math PhD's". Well, if feature X correlates with issues like eating lead paint as a kid, even to a small, otherwise undetectable extent, you're going to find that sort of difference.

Re: What It's Like to Be a Black Mathematician

#107

Post by dang » Mon, Feb 18, 2019, 8:35 PM UTC

ml2019 wrote: post #4

> Dr. Goins’s colleagues at Purdue said his receipt of tenure and subsequent promotion to full professor signaled the university’s willingness to overlook a sparse research portfolio in light of his extraordinary work with undergraduates, as well as the summer programs he organized for minority students. > But Dr. Goins said he was looking for something else. “I just never really felt respected,” he said. It actually…

You have no basis for saying this—as your own language admits ("It actually sounds like"... "His colleagues very likely"). That makes your comment a slur as well as a personal attack. When new accounts post those, we ban them as trolls.

Doubly when the purpose of the comment is generic ideological tangent. That is unwelcome here, as it is predictable, tedious, and interesting only to zealots.

Re: What It's Like to Be a Black Mathematician

#108

Post by AlexTWithBeard » Mon, Feb 18, 2019, 8:36 PM UTC

But aren't we all a minority in some way?

Looking at the folks in my office, many of us are not native speakers of English. The guy sitting next to me is a native speaker, but he's black. The guy next to him is a white native speaker, but he's disabled and has to work from home most of the time. Another guy "ticks all the marks", but he's extremely shy. And so on and so forth.

Look at yourself, at your parents carefully and you'll realize you are a minority in one way or another.

Re: What It's Like to Be a Black Mathematician

#109

Post by python_gt_r » Mon, Feb 18, 2019, 8:37 PM UTC

lotaezenwa wrote: post #103

python_gt_r wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also by definition, judgement biases underlying racism are common across people. There's no more racism in whites or republicans, rationalization is different. Splitting the world in racist and no racist is simplistic and poor argumentation.

> by definition judgement[sic] biases underlying racism are common across people 0) We never agreed on the definition of "judgment biases", so please do not use the phrase "by definition". Your definition differs from mine.

A very high percent of any race dates only inside their racial/ethnic group. And so on. It's natural preferences. Some people call it racism, specially if it's pointing at white people. I call it your life your choice.

Re: What It's Like to Be a Black Mathematician

#110

Post by _bxg1 » Mon, Feb 18, 2019, 8:38 PM UTC

iguy wrote: post #89

_bxg1 wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why can't "American" be the right cultural background, or better yet for math nerd kids, "mathematicians who are also musicians" (common), or "mathematicians who like drawing pictures" / "hate drawing pictures" (most depts have both)? Because America consists of multiple strongly-cohesive subcultures that aren't as simple as "American", but go much deeper than hobbies. Of course there are no hard lines, but if we'r…

These aren't hobbies. Number theorists and topologists have minds that work in profoundly different ways. Talented 12-year-olds will like some kinds of problems much more than others. I think a great outreach goal would be to get them rooting for one team or the other -- to give them an identity within mathematics, in other words. I'm not suggesting we can eliminate all other subcultures at the stoke of a pen. But do…

> But do think they can grow or die in strength as a result of our actions.

Are you suggesting it's desirable for them to die off? America is built on its diversity of subcultures. Just because there's some tension between them right now doesn't mean they're bad. These are growing pains.

> I have more sympathy for the seeing-someone-like-yourself argument when talking about aspiring pop stars (or politicians) who need to imagine themselves being on TV. But I'm dubious for mathematicians, most of whom apply to grad school because they still like solving problems, not because they imagine themselves in a job.

Based on what I've heard from friends in academia, it has more in common with being an aspiring pop star than many would like to think