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What It's Like to Be a Black Mathematician

nytimes.com

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Re: What It's Like to Be a Black Mathematician

#91

Post by rapture-bepure »

ericdykstra wrote: post #67
tptacek wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, that's true. They just suggest it.

No, again, this is blank-slateism. People are born with genetic predispositions that influence things such as height, eye color, mathematical ability, and career preference. You would only expect population-proportionate outcomes if genetics played no role. Even if they only play a 10% role, you get vastly different outcomes.

No, again, this is your racism. What you are saying is that certain demographics are underrepresented because they have lesser abilities, while you discount a universe of other factors.

The fact that you reach for "genetics" first and foremost is exactly equivalent to racism.

Re: What It's Like to Be a Black Mathematician

#92

Post by afiori »

tptacek wrote: post #38
afiori wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I need to say that I am a bit unsure how to relate to the two possible interpretation of "token black person". On one side there are people that assume black people at prestigious jobs are black token on the other side there are people that explicitly set out to hire some black tokens; in the middle you would have the society and culture that allows it. The first side is an easy case of racism in most cases, the seco…

You shouldn't be unsure. You weren't there, and the person who is relating their interpretation of the comment was.

I am sure that the fact that someone believes he is a "black token" is a problem, I am also sure that this could (almost) only happen in a place were there is quite some racism.

What I pointed out is that not all racism is the same; all of it is bad and all of it should stop, we agree on that, but as most human endeavour it is complex with complex motivation. If you and I want to stop it we should better think about how every situation can be different and how different type of racism require different solutions.

In my case above assuming incompetence and hiring minorities just to have better statistics are very different form of racism led by often different people, often with different motivation. If OP clarifies more I will trust that, but the wording itself was quite ambiguous to me

(also I have the impression some comments have moved around...)

Re: What It's Like to Be a Black Mathematician

#93

Post by 0815test »

whyisthewhat wrote: post #78
ericdykstra wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, again, this is blank-slateism. People are born with genetic predispositions that influence things such as height, eye color, mathematical ability, and career preference. You would only expect population-proportionate outcomes if genetics played no role. Even if they only play a 10% role, you get vastly different outcomes.

So your belief is that black people as a group have inherently less mathematical ability than whites people? Am I misinterpreting you?

A mathematics PhD is going to be in the far right tail of aptitude for a lot of relevant skills. This is the admittedly very rare case where altogether tiny differences in "inherent" ability will get amplified to the point where they actually start to matter - whatever "inherent" might mean, in the first place! Yup, crucially, even differences that are generally understood as "not inherent" can be so hard to address that they might as well be, for all we can do about them. If you ate too many lead paint flakes as a kid, the probability that you're going to be a successful math PhD drops quite a bit. And, short of tearing down and rebuilding a lot of homes that happen to have lead paint, lead pipes, etc. in them, we're unfortunately not going to be able to address this "inherent" unbalance for the foreseeable future.

Re: What It's Like to Be a Black Mathematician

#94

Post by pvg »

Legogris wrote: post #70
pvg wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that's the thing that's 'not helping', here.

There is such a thing as the "token gaijin" at Japanese companies - the foreigner who can show to visitors how international company this is. Generally very little influence or path of progress. Also just the knowledge of this phenomenon can cause self-doubt for the individual. White people office workers Japan are of course not the same as black mathematicians in the U.S., but I don't believe that it's not contribut…

I just don't think 'my prejudices are actually true' is the conclusion to draw from 'tokenism exists', that is all.

Re: What It's Like to Be a Black Mathematician

#95

Post by python_gt_r »

lotaezenwa wrote: post #44

This mathematician is not stupid. I would be inclined to believe he understands statistics/anecdotes/academia better than you reading this right now. We only get a small glimpse into the intricacies of his world view and life, and this is what he has chosen to share. This is the story he is telling. Ask yourself why someone in this position would tell this story based on years of lived experience. Do you believe him?…

Also by definition, judgement biases underlying racism are common across people. There's no more racism in whites or republicans, rationalization is different. Splitting the world in racist and no racist is simplistic and poor argumentation.

Re: What It's Like to Be a Black Mathematician

#96

Post by tptacek »

DanBC wrote: post #46
crowdpleaser wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meritocracy was the default for institutions so long as someone could enter the competition. The aberrations were for nepotism/ cronyism but those appear to be relatively limited. I can recommend some books about how the German university system worked or how the British civil service worked or how the Dutch trade houses worked if you’re interested. Today isn’t a perfect meritocracy, the last wasn’t either, but moder…

> how the British civil service worked Literally an old boys network where people had to go to the right schools. The civil service is currently working hard to correct years of racist (and sexist, and ableist) hiring practices. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/black-and-asi... "The study, commissioned by the Cabinet Secretary Jeremy Heywood and the Cabinet Office minister Francis Maude, found that ethn…

Just want to add that historical British society has a pretty amazing, filigreed culture of bigotry that has clearly been perfected through centuries of refinement. I didn't know this until I had a product management job where I had to work directly with a decent-sized direct sales team, and we had an upper-class and a lower-class person on that account team. The British take things beyond skin color, or even the old 1900s notion of whether the Italians are "truly" white --- they've got their hierarchy of parentage calibrated down to the county.

Re: What It's Like to Be a Black Mathematician

#97

Post by rapture-bepure »

ericdykstra wrote: post #80
whyisthewhat wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What specifically do you think is the reason black people should not be expected to achieve demographic parity in academic math? And how does that relate to “blank slate-ism”? You seem to be implying that there is some inherent characteristic of black people that prevents them from attaining equal representation in math academia. Is this what you intended to convey? Please be explicit.

> What specifically do you think is the reason black people should not be expected to achieve demographic parity in academic math? I don't expect demographic parity in anything. > And how does that relate to “blank slate-ism”? You only expect demographic parity in everything if you think genetics doesn't play a role in what type of careers people choose. > You seem to be implying that there is some inherent character…

Well, if you'd care to let us measure the bumps on your head, I'm pretty sure we could now come up with an equally moronic theory about related misshapen heads with a predisposition for making irrational, racist comments on the web.

Re: What It's Like to Be a Black Mathematician

#98

Post by tptacek »

0815test wrote: post #93
whyisthewhat wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So your belief is that black people as a group have inherently less mathematical ability than whites people? Am I misinterpreting you?

A mathematics PhD is going to be in the far right tail of aptitude for a lot of relevant skills. This is the admittedly very rare case where altogether tiny differences in "inherent" ability will get amplified to the point where they actually start to matter - whatever "inherent" might mean, in the first place! Yup, crucially, even differences that are generally understood as "not inherent" can be so hard to address…

You understand that the perception that you're looking at someone's skin color or facial features, making a prediction as to whether they ingested lead paint as a child, and then acting accordingly is going to be problematic, right?

Re: What It's Like to Be a Black Mathematician

#99

Post by smallgovt »

Mirioron wrote: post #84
afiori wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In a way, affirmative action is rewarding merit -- it's just a different definition of merit that looks at how much you've excelled in your field in the context of the difficulties you faced along the way. This a good way to put it, but under this light an income-based affirmative action would maybe make more sense. Even better if based on both the income of you family and the Gini coefficient of you district/city/…

I don't see how affirmative action makes sense. I can understand spending more resources to catch people up from poor backgrounds, so that they can pass the bar, but I don't see why you would want to lower the bar.

One reason is that, as as society, we've agreed that we value (and want to reward) hard work over god-given talent.

So, if there is a prestigious position available, we would rather award it to someone who is slightly less capable but had to work much harder to get where he/she is.

This value structure arguably hurts productivity, but it's not inferior in an absolute sense. It all depends on what we value.

Re: What It's Like to Be a Black Mathematician

#100

Post by tptacek »

afiori wrote: post #92
tptacek wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You shouldn't be unsure. You weren't there, and the person who is relating their interpretation of the comment was.

I am sure that the fact that someone believes he is a "black token" is a problem, I am also sure that this could (almost) only happen in a place were there is quite some racism. What I pointed out is that not all racism is the same; all of it is bad and all of it should stop, we agree on that, but as most human endeavour it is complex with complex motivation. If you and I want to stop it we should better think about…

I have no idea where you're trying to take this. I'm saying that it's not productive to argue over the subtext of a hypothetical conversation neither of us are a party to. At some point your argument is going to have to boil down to "no, that person relating that story is not being fully truthful". Ok, that's a coherent argument, but not one I'm interested in having with you.
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