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What It's Like to Be a Black Mathematician

nytimes.com

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Re: What It's Like to Be a Black Mathematician

#31

Post by afiori »

tptacek wrote: post #15
willpiers wrote: post #8

I fail to see how either of your anecdotes constitute racism

In the first one, a person made the argument that the sole black person in the department was there only because he was black. That's what "token black person" means. The second recapitulates a common racial stereotype about native Americans. Hope that helped!

I need to say that I am a bit unsure how to relate to the two possible interpretation of "token black person". On one side there are people that assume black people at prestigious jobs are black token on the other side there are people that explicitly set out to hire some black tokens; in the middle you would have the society and culture that allows it.

The first side is an easy case of racism in most cases, the second side seem more nuanced. In the GP case apparently the person thought of himself as a black token, that is for sure a bad situation... but I cannot wrap my head around "how" it is a bad situation and its implications.

Re: What It's Like to Be a Black Mathematician

#32

Post by BookmarkSaver »

skh wrote: post #28
paulcole wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yeah, the road system here was designed by a drunk Indian What does including Indian add here? If the (alleged) drunk was white would the person have said, "drunk white guy"?

I'm assuming this is a genuine question on your part. I would suggest reading up on common stereotypes of the native peoples in the U.S. Native Americans did not design the road system in West Lafayette. Whites did. The person making the remark is in essence saying: Yes the road system is really fucked up. It's so bad that I can't give a real explanation for it so I jokingly say a drunk Indian had to have done it bec…

For some reason I assumed that it was referring to subcontinent Indians, and was slightly confused because I don't consider it racist to point out that their road system is absolutely atrocious.

Re: What It's Like to Be a Black Mathematician

#33

Post by eruci »

mLuby wrote: post #17
eruci wrote: post #5

"Fewer than 1 percent of doctorates in math are awarded to African-Americans" So? We have affirmative action policies for university admissions. If an Asian needs an "X" SAT score, and an African-American "X - δ" to enter university, yet, fewer of them make it to the higher levels, what do we do? Have different standards for awarding doctorates based on race? Western civilization is in crisis because of these social…

I mean, doesn't the madness stop once the identity breakdown in a given field roughly matches the identity in the general population? If X% of people are Black, I would expect given no structural impediments that roughly X% of Mathematicians would also be Black. The how to get there in the quickest and fairest way is a political question.

That's a rather simplistic political view.

Divide all professional achievement equally among races, although individual scientific recognitions (as in this case) are not up to the state to divvy up, but, up to the individual person to earn via hard work and innate talent.

Even in the case mentioned in the article, it seems like a doctorate was awarded mostly on political grounds and not so much on the quality of research of the individual in question.

Which means the madness of affirmative action politics has already reached the highest levels.

Re: What It's Like to Be a Black Mathematician

#34

Post by kauffj »

> For the record, here is a small sample of other communities where black people are strongly underrepresented:

> Runners (3%). Bikers (6%). Furries (2%). Wall Street senior management (2%). Occupy Wall Street protesters (unknown but low, one source says 1.6% but likely an underestimate). BDSM (unknown but low) Tea Party members (1%). American Buddhists (~2%). Bird watchers (4%). Environmentalists (various but universally low). Wikipedia contributors (unknown but low). Atheists (2%). Vegetarian activists (maybe 1-5%). Yoga enthusiasts (unknown but low). College baseball players (5%). Swimmers (2%). Fanfiction readers (2%). Unitarian Universalists (1%).

> Can you see what all of these groups have in common?

> No. No you can’t. If there’s some hidden factor uniting Wall Street senior management and furries, it is way beyond any of our pay grades.

> But what I noticed when I looked up those numbers was that in every case, the people involved have come up with a pat explanation that sounds perfectly plausible right up until you compare it to any other group, at which point it bursts into flame

Excerpt from Black People Less Likely: https://slatestarcodex.com/2015/02/11/black-people-less-like...

Re: What It's Like to Be a Black Mathematician

#35

Post by r_smart »

tyler- wrote: post #23

People from poor demographics in general are discriminated against in various ways. Want to learn math but come from a poor neighborhood? Good luck. You’re probably locked in a school system with bad teachers and few if any math courses beyond calculus. Even if you’re talented you probably know 0 people that can help you. Now your growth is prematurely stunted. That kid from a better off family that shows talent in m…

>Even if you’re talented you probably know 0 people that can help you. Now your growth is prematurely stunted.

This was my experience, and was challenging. At the time I was more inclined to the arts, but the problem is the same. Who can you talk to about the books you're reading (my particular passion)?

Re: What It's Like to Be a Black Mathematician

#36

Post by ryanmonroe »

eruci wrote: post #5

"Fewer than 1 percent of doctorates in math are awarded to African-Americans" So? We have affirmative action policies for university admissions. If an Asian needs an "X" SAT score, and an African-American "X - δ" to enter university, yet, fewer of them make it to the higher levels, what do we do? Have different standards for awarding doctorates based on race? Western civilization is in crisis because of these social…

> Have different standards for awarding doctorates based on race?

This is not at all what the article is saying. The article argues the low percentage is partially due to a "leaky pipeline" where black students don't have access to the same educational resources, and partially due to an unwelcoming atmosphere. The "So what?", if there is one given, is that we should address those issues, and the only example they give of how to do this is voluntarily setting up and participating in organizations for minorities. Implying the article as asking for lowered standards for black people is a mischaracterization.

I wouldn't even look at the article as an argument for any particular educational policy though. To me it seems like the article is light on the "So?", because its main aim is just to convey what's in the title: "What It's Like to Be a Black Mathematician". If the content of the article just boils down to "it's kinda shitty", it would still be worthwhile and convey valuable information we should care about, even if the implications are left to the reader.

Re: What It's Like to Be a Black Mathematician

#37

Post by coldtea »

crowdpleaser wrote: post #16
burkaman wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> what do we do? Good question. It's a very hard problem, and requires a lot of thought and self-reflection to even begin to solve. Simple university admission policies will not solve such a broad social issue, as you've noted. > original meritocratic competitive default mode Can you explain this? When/where did this meritocratic system exist?

Meritocracy was the default for institutions so long as someone could enter the competition. The aberrations were for nepotism/ cronyism but those appear to be relatively limited. I can recommend some books about how the German university system worked or how the British civil service worked or how the Dutch trade houses worked if you’re interested. Today isn’t a perfect meritocracy, the last wasn’t either, but moder…

>Meritocracy was the default for institutions so long as someone could enter the competition. The aberrations were for nepotism/ cronyism but those appear to be relatively limited.

Limited? Weren't universities merely the place were nobility and rich heirs went to study to get back and lead their inherited empires?

Re: What It's Like to Be a Black Mathematician

#38

Post by tptacek »

afiori wrote: post #31
tptacek wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the first one, a person made the argument that the sole black person in the department was there only because he was black. That's what "token black person" means. The second recapitulates a common racial stereotype about native Americans. Hope that helped!

I need to say that I am a bit unsure how to relate to the two possible interpretation of "token black person". On one side there are people that assume black people at prestigious jobs are black token on the other side there are people that explicitly set out to hire some black tokens; in the middle you would have the society and culture that allows it. The first side is an easy case of racism in most cases, the seco…

You shouldn't be unsure. You weren't there, and the person who is relating their interpretation of the comment was.

Re: What It's Like to Be a Black Mathematician

#39

Post by avip »

eruci wrote: post #5

"Fewer than 1 percent of doctorates in math are awarded to African-Americans" So? We have affirmative action policies for university admissions. If an Asian needs an "X" SAT score, and an African-American "X - δ" to enter university, yet, fewer of them make it to the higher levels, what do we do? Have different standards for awarding doctorates based on race? Western civilization is in crisis because of these social…

Factually speaking there are, for example, women secured positions in Universities. So "...Have different standards for awarding doctorates based on race"? Maybe not for Ph.d, but for tenure the answer is factual yes.

Re: What It's Like to Be a Black Mathematician

#40

Post by afiori »

smallgovt wrote: post #30
ml2019 wrote: post #4

> Dr. Goins’s colleagues at Purdue said his receipt of tenure and subsequent promotion to full professor signaled the university’s willingness to overlook a sparse research portfolio in light of his extraordinary work with undergraduates, as well as the summer programs he organized for minority students. > But Dr. Goins said he was looking for something else. “I just never really felt respected,” he said. It actually…

> This is the unintended consequence of hiring and promoting based on identity instead of merit. I would argue that the more apt description is: This is the unintended consequence of hiring and promoting based on aptitude instead of current qualification. In other words, when you see a 'less-qualified' individual who 'made it due to affirmative action', it may be constructive to remember that they are probably just a…

> In a way, affirmative action is rewarding merit -- it's just a different definition of merit that looks at how much you've excelled in your field in the context of the difficulties you faced along the way.

This a good way to put it, but under this light an income-based affirmative action would maybe make more sense. Even better if based on both the income of you family and the Gini coefficient of you district/city/area.

(I am not an expert on affirmative action, I never heard of this but I don't know if it is already in place)

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