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What It's Like to Be a Black Mathematician

nytimes.com

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Re: What It's Like to Be a Black Mathematician

#21

Post by skh »

eruci wrote: post #5

"Fewer than 1 percent of doctorates in math are awarded to African-Americans" So? We have affirmative action policies for university admissions. If an Asian needs an "X" SAT score, and an African-American "X - δ" to enter university, yet, fewer of them make it to the higher levels, what do we do? Have different standards for awarding doctorates based on race? Western civilization is in crisis because of these social…

Western civilization is in crisis because of these social experimental policies undermining its original meritocratic competitive default mode. So, the real question is, where/when at some point does this madness stop?

We have a significant segment of the population that has been historically oppressed and suppressed. After desegregation whites fled the cities. Go look at the population of the top 50 cities in the U.S. in 1960 and compare with their populations in 1970, 1980, 1990, and 2000. That white flight had a very bad effect on the school systems in those cities since school funding is largely a product of the tax base. So while from a legal standpoint there is equality (and this is generous given how bail, policing, etc. are done in the U.S.) there is indeed a state of inequality. Western civilization is not in a state of crisis because of attempts to remedy this state of affairs.

I submit the real question is when will people understand the social context in which a significant segment of the population exists and seek ways to remedy the problems. Be part of the solution.

Re: What It's Like to Be a Black Mathematician

#22

Post by jellicle »

ml2019 wrote: post #4

> Dr. Goins’s colleagues at Purdue said his receipt of tenure and subsequent promotion to full professor signaled the university’s willingness to overlook a sparse research portfolio in light of his extraordinary work with undergraduates, as well as the summer programs he organized for minority students. > But Dr. Goins said he was looking for something else. “I just never really felt respected,” he said. It actually…

Commenter looks at a field that hires only white men, and excludes everyone else, and sees a meritocracy. If an single extremely competent, outstandingly-qualified black man is hired, it's because of his identity.

Remarkable.

Re: What It's Like to Be a Black Mathematician

#23

Post by tyler- »

People from poor demographics in general are discriminated against in various ways.

Want to learn math but come from a poor neighborhood? Good luck. You’re probably locked in a school system with bad teachers and few if any math courses beyond calculus.

Even if you’re talented you probably know 0 people that can help you. Now your growth is prematurely stunted.

That kid from a better off family that shows talent in math? Probably get recognized for it from an early age and gets tutors and advanced training. Probably already completed proof based courses in analysis, algebra by the time they completed high school. They get into better schools and have ahead start. Even if they are just as talented as you the poor kid.

Re: What It's Like to Be a Black Mathematician

#24

Post by avip »

skh wrote: post #6

EDIT: Got rid of part of my post that had enough information in it that could be tied to people in real life. -------- It doesn't help that West Lafayette is a very racist place in my experience. I'm white and a native speaker of American English. On my first day of teaching at Purdue I introduced myself to the class and a student asked, "Are you an American? Do you speak English?" At the time West Lafayette had a co…

It is also not helping that there actually is such a thing as "token X". A less discussed side effect of affirmative action.

Re: What It's Like to Be a Black Mathematician

#25

Post by dayvid »

eruci wrote: post #5

"Fewer than 1 percent of doctorates in math are awarded to African-Americans" So? We have affirmative action policies for university admissions. If an Asian needs an "X" SAT score, and an African-American "X - δ" to enter university, yet, fewer of them make it to the higher levels, what do we do? Have different standards for awarding doctorates based on race? Western civilization is in crisis because of these social…

I've travelled a bit and I think most people have the same potential to be good at different fields across races. The main difference is how much value is placed on a skillset in a society.

There's more of an emphasis in Math (and Science?) in Asia. When I was in India, I was a part of a group scavenger hunt and all the girls decided they would work together to solve calculus problems. That blew my mind. In USA, people are able to brush aside math by saying it's hard or math isn't for girls, etc.

Re: What It's Like to Be a Black Mathematician

#26

Post by [deleted] »

tptacek wrote: post #15
willpiers wrote: post #8

I fail to see how either of your anecdotes constitute racism

In the first one, a person made the argument that the sole black person in the department was there only because he was black. That's what "token black person" means. The second recapitulates a common racial stereotype about native Americans. Hope that helped!

[deleted]

Re: What It's Like to Be a Black Mathematician

#27

Post by _bxg1 »

eruci wrote: post #5

"Fewer than 1 percent of doctorates in math are awarded to African-Americans" So? We have affirmative action policies for university admissions. If an Asian needs an "X" SAT score, and an African-American "X - δ" to enter university, yet, fewer of them make it to the higher levels, what do we do? Have different standards for awarding doctorates based on race? Western civilization is in crisis because of these social…

There's something to be said for representation. If you're a bright high-schooler with some interest in mathematics, but don't have a single mathematician to point to who shares your cultural background, it's much harder to visualize and manifest your goal. There's at least a partial self-sustaining mechanism to this sort of thing, which I think is the best argument for affirmative action.

Re: What It's Like to Be a Black Mathematician

#28

Post by skh »

paulcole wrote: post #13
willpiers wrote: post #8

I fail to see how either of your anecdotes constitute racism

> Yeah, the road system here was designed by a drunk Indian What does including Indian add here? If the (alleged) drunk was white would the person have said, "drunk white guy"?

I'm assuming this is a genuine question on your part. I would suggest reading up on common stereotypes of the native peoples in the U.S. Native Americans did not design the road system in West Lafayette. Whites did. The person making the remark is in essence saying:

Yes the road system is really fucked up. It's so bad that I can't give a real explanation for it so I jokingly say a drunk Indian had to have done it because that's the only thing that can make sense.

Re: What It's Like to Be a Black Mathematician

#29

Post by tptacek »

crowdpleaser wrote: post #16
burkaman wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> what do we do? Good question. It's a very hard problem, and requires a lot of thought and self-reflection to even begin to solve. Simple university admission policies will not solve such a broad social issue, as you've noted. > original meritocratic competitive default mode Can you explain this? When/where did this meritocratic system exist?

Meritocracy was the default for institutions so long as someone could enter the competition. The aberrations were for nepotism/ cronyism but those appear to be relatively limited. I can recommend some books about how the German university system worked or how the British civil service worked or how the Dutch trade houses worked if you’re interested. Today isn’t a perfect meritocracy, the last wasn’t either, but moder…

The historical British civil service is your prime example of a superior meritocracy?

Re: What It's Like to Be a Black Mathematician

#30

Post by smallgovt »

ml2019 wrote: post #4

> Dr. Goins’s colleagues at Purdue said his receipt of tenure and subsequent promotion to full professor signaled the university’s willingness to overlook a sparse research portfolio in light of his extraordinary work with undergraduates, as well as the summer programs he organized for minority students. > But Dr. Goins said he was looking for something else. “I just never really felt respected,” he said. It actually…

> This is the unintended consequence of hiring and promoting based on identity instead of merit.

I would argue that the more apt description is: This is the unintended consequence of hiring and promoting based on aptitude instead of current qualification.

In other words, when you see a 'less-qualified' individual who 'made it due to affirmative action', it may be constructive to remember that they are probably just as 'talented' as their peers, albeit not as 'qualified.

They haven't had the time/resources to capitalize on their god-given talent due to various socio-economic pressures.

In a way, affirmative action is rewarding merit -- it's just a different definition of merit that looks at how much you've excelled in your field in the context of the difficulties you faced along the way.

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