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How the US has hidden its empire

theguardian.com

71–80 of 106 posts

Re: How the US has hidden its empire

#71
post #58

This is the reason why China finds it acceptable to act as they do in quite a few things, such as attempts to enlarge their EEZ. In their mind, they are just doing what USA did too, so it's a fair game. But they do not understand, refuse to understand, or simply hold irrelevant the narrative manipulation that is necessary to pull it off, and this is something US excels at. The 'spreading freedom' meme is just one exa…

Well the US collapsed our own narrative with Iraq and subsequent regime change attempts, which is why Russia and China don’t bother to try now.

In the aftermath of the first Gulf War, George H. W. Bush originally attempted to create an international precedent where sovereign nations don’t invade each other, by refusing to push into Iraq and depose Saddam after expelling him from Kuwait. That was an important aspect of his “New World Order” and quite forward looking. Clinton mostly upheld it, but subsequently Bush Jr and the neocons tossed that out the window with their invasion of Iraq.

That the Iraq invasion was both poorly justified and poorly executed (the occupation at least) hastened the destruction of H. W.’s precedent. America’s additional regime change attempts since of varying results have further undermined it. At this point the precedent and SOP for the great powers is barely concealed will to power.

The 21st century is going to be ugly as Russia, China and others follow America’s ill-conceived lead in this regard. But make no mistake, it was the US itself that made this dangerous state of affairs more likely.

Re: How the US has hidden its empire

#72
post #64
post #58

This is the reason why China finds it acceptable to act as they do in quite a few things, such as attempts to enlarge their EEZ. In their mind, they are just doing what USA did too, so it's a fair game. But they do not understand, refuse to understand, or simply hold irrelevant the narrative manipulation that is necessary to pull it off, and this is something US excels at. The 'spreading freedom' meme is just one exa…

Oof. As a German I cringe when I hear people cite the firebombing of Dresden. Yes, it was one of the worst bombing raids and yes, we would consider it a war crime (or at least extremely unethical) nowadays (much like many things both sides had done throughout either World War) but it's usually invoked to play down nazi crimes and it's usually misrepresented because of very successful propaganda. The estimated death t…

Hi, I created an account to say this: my grandfather was there after the bombing and said that the numbers where heavily downplayed. They were saying 30k, when in fact, it was at least 75k, probably way more. It hurts me personally to have my grandpa indirectly accused as a revisionist, when he was personally there, thus this reply. I don't like it when numbers like these get changed because of politics.

Re: How the US has hidden its empire

#73
post #67
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oof. As a German I cringe when I hear people cite the firebombing of Dresden. Yes, it was one of the worst bombing raids and yes, we would consider it a war crime (or at least extremely unethical) nowadays (much like many things both sides had done throughout either World War) but it's usually invoked to play down nazi crimes and it's usually misrepresented because of very successful propaganda. The estimated death t…

this seems like a valuable point: the collective misremembering of WW2 as some sort of "noble war", at least by the Allies, should probably be completely reassessed. but it is tied in very closely to the non-empire myth, and so it isn't.

The most recent Hardcore History episodes are about WWII from the perspective of Japan, and they’ve really opened my eyes a bit to just how much of their side of the story was left out of my education.

Re: How the US has hidden its empire

#74
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please attend to your facts: -The fire bombing of Dresden was executed jointly by the United States and United Kingdom, with the UK flying more sorties. This occurred during a war when Germany was executing strategic bombing campaigns against the UK. -The United States of America did not fire bomb Kyoto. Nobody did.

> This occurred during a war when Germany was executing strategic bombing campaigns against the UK. The wider point is interesting though. We started the war with the attitude that killing civilians would be a war crime, and then as the war went on that principle was eroded more and more until fire-bombing several civilian populations across Germany was allowed. There's a reason "Bombber Harris" was also known as But…

Indeed. Attitudes toward civilian casualties in warfare, at least in the West, are less tolerant today--- but the West hasn't been in an existentially-challenging shooting war since 1945.

Re: How the US has hidden its empire

#75
post #61
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's hope the opinion of your neighbor doesn't cause a constitutional crisis.

I think the people who are spreading these rumors are playing a very dangerous game. There seems to be a trend to spread doubts about elections, FBI investigations, CIA findings and others without providing real evidence. This is a short term benefit for the people spreading the rumors but I wonder if they are starting something that may spin out of control at some point.

We're a bit past that right now.

Re: How the US has hidden its empire

#76
post #72
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oof. As a German I cringe when I hear people cite the firebombing of Dresden. Yes, it was one of the worst bombing raids and yes, we would consider it a war crime (or at least extremely unethical) nowadays (much like many things both sides had done throughout either World War) but it's usually invoked to play down nazi crimes and it's usually misrepresented because of very successful propaganda. The estimated death t…

Hi, I created an account to say this: my grandfather was there after the bombing and said that the numbers where heavily downplayed. They were saying 30k, when in fact, it was at least 75k, probably way more. It hurts me personally to have my grandpa indirectly accused as a revisionist, when he was personally there, thus this reply. I don't like it when numbers like these get changed because of politics.

This is the internet, just posting that something is true because your grandfather said it is does not make it true, literally anyone could use that as 'proof' for anything. You and OP are both going to need to produce more data/sources to support your differing claims.

Re: How the US has hidden its empire

#77
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This occurred during a war when Germany was executing strategic bombing campaigns against the UK. The wider point is interesting though. We started the war with the attitude that killing civilians would be a war crime, and then as the war went on that principle was eroded more and more until fire-bombing several civilian populations across Germany was allowed. There's a reason "Bombber Harris" was also known as But…

Indeed. Attitudes toward civilian casualties in warfare, at least in the West, are less tolerant today--- but the West hasn't been in an existentially-challenging shooting war since 1945.

100K+ civillians were killed in Iraq2 and the press stayed mostly silent about it while the government tried to fudge the numbers and avoid accounting them altogether. Nobody cares if it's not the anointed ones dying.

Re: How the US has hidden its empire

#78
post #13

> Besides Guam, American Samoa, the Northern Mariana Islands, Puerto Rico, the US Virgin Islands and a handful of minor outlying islands, the US maintains roughly 800 overseas military bases around the world. Germany has a few US military bases. It’s a bit of a micro cosmos. People pay in USD and can buy American products there. I think even the VAT is added on checkout to the price (whereas in Germany, prices in sto…

It's not just military bases, the US DoS runs a whole Spa-resorts in Garmisch-Partenkirchen exclusively for US/NATO (excluding German nationals) military personnel [0].

[0] https://www.edelweisslodgeandresort.com/accomodations/eligib...

Re: How the US has hidden its empire

#79
post #58

This is the reason why China finds it acceptable to act as they do in quite a few things, such as attempts to enlarge their EEZ. In their mind, they are just doing what USA did too, so it's a fair game. But they do not understand, refuse to understand, or simply hold irrelevant the narrative manipulation that is necessary to pull it off, and this is something US excels at. The 'spreading freedom' meme is just one exa…

Well the US collapsed our own narrative with Iraq and subsequent regime change attempts, which is why Russia and China don’t bother to try now. In the aftermath of the first Gulf War, George H. W. Bush originally attempted to create an international precedent where sovereign nations don’t invade each other, by refusing to push into Iraq and depose Saddam after expelling him from Kuwait. That was an important aspect o…

[deleted]

Re: How the US has hidden its empire

#80
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This occurred during a war when Germany was executing strategic bombing campaigns against the UK. The wider point is interesting though. We started the war with the attitude that killing civilians would be a war crime, and then as the war went on that principle was eroded more and more until fire-bombing several civilian populations across Germany was allowed. There's a reason "Bombber Harris" was also known as But…

Indeed. Attitudes toward civilian casualties in warfare, at least in the West, are less tolerant today--- but the West hasn't been in an existentially-challenging shooting war since 1945.

Aren’t there great number of civilian deaths in the Middle East like Iraq, Yemen? I wouldn’t be surprised that my ignorance is leaving out some wars in Africa this century that the west has some complicity to as well.
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