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Finding Lena Forsen, the Patron Saint of JPEGs

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Re: Finding Lena Forsen, the Patron Saint of JPEGs

#81

Post by Walf »

ralusek wrote: post #11

"In 1973, at the moment that her picture was being brought into the lab, there were hundreds if not thousands of women being pushed out,” said Marie Hicks, a historian of technology and author of Programmed Inequality.1 “All this happened for a reason. If they hadn’t used a Playboy centerfold, they almost certainly would have used another picture of a pretty white woman. The Playboy thing gets our attention, but real…

It's definitely pushing an agenda, with a whiff of product placement, too. It's a bit of an absurd conclusion they're drawing. Sure, continuing to use a centerfold picture is sexist, but the picture was only a tool and - unlike the article implies - there is no 'spirit' of Lena inside my family photos.

Re: Finding Lena Forsen, the Patron Saint of JPEGs

#82

Post by jabberthemutt »

int_19h wrote: post #72
jabberthemutt wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is also natural to be attracted to sweet pictures of the other sex. But this whole article pushes the mindset that this is not ok. So I would argue that ignorance of proper spellings (in the same alphabet! Your examples are misleading) marginalizes them.

It's not the same alphabet. English alphabet is distinct from the Swedish alphabet, they just happen to use the same writing system.

Sorry, second language English here. I thought it was obvious what I meant. é is very close in appearance and sound to e compared to some Hebrew(?) or Chinese.

Re: Finding Lena Forsen, the Patron Saint of JPEGs

#83

Post by eecc »

yawaramin wrote: post #21
iamleppert wrote: post #12

What’s wrong with female beauty? It’s not like it’s porn or a nude image. I’m not even a straight male but I can still appreciate female beauty and I don’t think it’s sexist. The photo is more artistic than anything. I wonder if the same people who complain about this photo lodge similar complaints when they visit art museums that have female nudity in oil paintings or nude female sculptures? I know nudity and even a…

Because it's not about you. It's about the women who see the image, understand its history, and see it as another reminder of how tech is not just male-dominated but thoughtlessly so (having Playboy issues lying around in the research lab) and where women are literally reduced to objects. From the article: > “As silly as it sounds, they were surprised she was a real person,” he told me. Women notice stuff like that,…

Frankly I think it’s so overstated that it’s edging toward self-parody.

Of course a straight male won’t ever be able to compute the monstrosity of Patriarchy - ironically, it makes me a lesser human - but seriously, I’m not sure all this vitriol helps.

Believe me, I’m relieved when I see a normal woman work at software. It raises my hope that we’re not inevitability stuck living in a Mad Men episode. A normal woman, not some edgy, fringe individual, just a plain female, not ugly nor beautiful, loud extrovert of not. Just plain average.

And the next thought is how little there still are, and how all this punitive, calvinist moral panic might be focusing so much on castigation and not enough at making it chill for anyone to just pick up this job if they feel it’s their thing.

I wonder how many walk away and do something else rather than become a walking flame-bait.

Re: Finding Lena Forsen, the Patron Saint of JPEGs

#84

Post by titanix2 »

yawaramin wrote: post #40
lawrenceyan wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You assume that the women who choose to model in Plaboy do so not out of their own free will and choice. That is somewhat diminutive of these women wouldn’t you say? Who are you to say anything about their character or quality as “objects”? It seems uncharacteristically harsh to just make an assumption like that.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19182950

So everything should be aseptised because a few women feel insecure when seing image of beautifuller ones? The real gender issue here lies in jealousy and the utterly harsh competition that runs in-between women.

Re: Finding Lena Forsen, the Patron Saint of JPEGs

#85

Post by eecc »

v64 wrote: post #39
crankylinuxuser wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As long as a "gun" is held to our collective heads stating 'you will surrender your bodies to work or starve on the street', there is no such thing as making a voluntary decision like what you say. Look no further than the article: > “I didn’t really know what that was,” she told me. “But my husband, he thought it was kind of cool, and it was money, and I didn’t have a lot of money.” And what did she get? > After her…

I disagree with the characterization that it's comparable to a gun to the head. In Lena's case, she was offered a way to make money, she considered the decision, took it, then used the money she made to start an independent life for herself. She declines Hugh Hefner's offer because that crosses a line for her. How does any of this suggest the desperation of starvation? At the end of the day, her perspective matters t…

Besides, in a world obsessed with copyright and take-downs would her image have circulated so much today? Would she have become so iconic to enter our collective unconscious?

She’s like the Amen Break.

Re: Finding Lena Forsen, the Patron Saint of JPEGs

#86

Post by underwater »

BurningCycles wrote: post #33
underwater wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it makes a significant portion of the population feel objectified? This is literally what happened to "Lenna" - the image didn't celebrate or honour her as a person. It was an image protraying an unrealistic "beautiful thing". People didn't even know her real name, or what she's achieved as a real person. It's perfectly reasonable and rational for women to say this makes it harder for them to be perceived as…

So when my two sisters were plastering their walls with very good looking males to which they masturbated, it was making it harder for me as a male to be percieved as being equal ? Or the fanservice aimed at females in current-day shows like Riverdale where these hot guys throw off their shirts at the hint of an opportunity ? This idea that it is somehow wrong to appreciate and find pleasure in the physical appearanc…

Fair question. I would say the primary difference is that in most workplaces men are seen as being competent, and being male is not a disadvantage or put you in a minority. There are undoubtedly professions where stereotypes about men would be harmful. For example if a man wants to become a flight attendant, nurse, or a school teacher.

Also consider examples outside of work, like dating. The tall, handsome, muscular guy is more likely to be perceived as desirable even though those traits don't necessarily correlate with what makes a good boyfriend. A man in search of a partner might feel objectified if his potential partner had posters of good-looking men up on her wall.

Re: Finding Lena Forsen, the Patron Saint of JPEGs

#87

Post by ChoGGi »

BurningCycles wrote: post #33
underwater wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it makes a significant portion of the population feel objectified? This is literally what happened to "Lenna" - the image didn't celebrate or honour her as a person. It was an image protraying an unrealistic "beautiful thing". People didn't even know her real name, or what she's achieved as a real person. It's perfectly reasonable and rational for women to say this makes it harder for them to be perceived as…

So when my two sisters were plastering their walls with very good looking males to which they masturbated, it was making it harder for me as a male to be percieved as being equal ? Or the fanservice aimed at females in current-day shows like Riverdale where these hot guys throw off their shirts at the hint of an opportunity ? This idea that it is somehow wrong to appreciate and find pleasure in the physical appearanc…

  where these hot guys throw off their shirts at the hint of an opportunity ?
I don't know why, but I'm reminded of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spwTDpJ0-eY

Re: Finding Lena Forsen, the Patron Saint of JPEGs

#88

Post by lelf »

rococode wrote: post #62
59nadir wrote: post #59

Lena Forsén* You'd think, having written a whole article about her, you'd be able to spell her name right. It's incredible to me how relaxed people in English speaking countries, particularly the US, are with removing and changing letters as they see fit. I remember seeing someone on Reddit, for example, who had named their kid Soren, after Søren Kierkegaard, completely ignoring that it's not even the same name. Do p…

Isn't that just how language works? When a name doesn't suit your language's writing system it's natural to adapt it in a way that's more accessible. English simply doesn't have an acute accent. It's why people in English speaking countries are named Michael (or one of the 50+ alternatives) instead of the original מִיכָאֵל, or why BBC reports on Chinese President Xi Jinping instead of Chinese President 习近平.

But it’s completely fine/effortless to use it in English, it’s even part of latin-1.

Fiancée résumé déjà vu touché.

Re: Finding Lena Forsen, the Patron Saint of JPEGs

#89

Post by cedex12 »

taneq wrote: post #79
jordigh wrote: post #38

I feel that whenever Lena is mentioned, we should also give a shoutout to the researchers who were fed up with her and decided to use Fabio instead. https://arxiv.org/abs/1202.6429 What do you guys (yes, guys) think about making Fabio the standard image instead?

I'd have no issue with it, but then I have no issue with the Lena image. Of course, anyone who does have an issue with Lena would have equal issue with a male equivalent, if they're not a hypocrite.

> if they're not a hypocrite.

I don't agree at all with your statement here. There is a whole historical/social difference at play here; taking it into account doesn't make you a hypocrite.

(I hate the "hypocrite" judgement. So easy to cast and rarely true)

Re: Finding Lena Forsen, the Patron Saint of JPEGs

#90

Post by [deleted] »

titanix2 wrote: post #84
yawaramin wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19182950

So everything should be aseptised because a few women feel insecure when seing image of beautifuller ones? The real gender issue here lies in jealousy and the utterly harsh competition that runs in-between women.

[deleted]
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