On the subject of disclosing your compensation • Hacker News Board

Re: On the subject of disclosing your compensation

#11

Post by jemfinch » Thu, Nov 18, 2010, 4:33 PM UTC

CodeMage wrote: post #3

Great advice. It took me years to learn it on my own. One thing I would like to add is there are times you have to clam up completely and refuse to give out even a range. At one of the companies I worked for, they had a weird policy of not hiring people if their new salary would exceed their old salary by more than 20%. Now, I can understand some of the reasoning behind it, but I personally find it detestable. The be…

Can you explain some of the reasoning behind that policy, because I don't understand it.

Re: On the subject of disclosing your compensation

#12

Post by raganwald » Thu, Nov 18, 2010, 4:44 PM UTC

SimonPStevens wrote: post #10

This might work fine for contractors, but it's nonsense for permanent employees. 5 years covers a range from my first graduate job to my current reasonably good mid-level salary. If I gave that range to a recruiter I'd end up at a bunch of interviews with companies all trying to offer me close to a graduate salary.

The context here is that a recruiter calls you and says, "Y Combinator is looking for an Arc programmer to work on new versions of the language as well as maintain the HN site. Please give me your resumé and your current salary."

You say, "Here's my resumé." The recruiter demands the salary, saying that Paul won't interview anyone without it. My first advice is that you can just say no. The sun will still shine, you'll find work elsewhere that you enjoy.

But if you really, really want to interview for the Arc job, the thesis of this post is that giving the range is better than giving the salary at your current job.

If the recruiter then tries to jam you into a job paying Ramen noodles because five years ago that's what you were making working for a startup... I agree that's annoying. Only you can decide whether that downside is unbearable.

Re: On the subject of disclosing your compensation

#13

Post by yalurker » Thu, Nov 18, 2010, 4:49 PM UTC

What if you are moving from a low cost area to a high cost area?

I just checked out an online cost-of-living calculator and my salary in Austin would have to increase by 2.6x to have the same quality of life in Palo Alto.

How many HR types are going to realize that 50 in Austin is 100 in San Fran or Manhattan?

Re: On the subject of disclosing your compensation

#14

Post by haribilalic » Thu, Nov 18, 2010, 4:49 PM UTC

jemfinch wrote: post #11

CodeMage wrote: post #3

Great advice. It took me years to learn it on my own. One thing I would like to add is there are times you have to clam up completely and refuse to give out even a range. At one of the companies I worked for, they had a weird policy of not hiring people if their new salary would exceed their old salary by more than 20%. Now, I can understand some of the reasoning behind it, but I personally find it detestable. The be…

Can you explain some of the reasoning behind that policy, because I don't understand it.

I guess the justification is that if you really worth the new salary, your old salary would have been closer to it.

Re: On the subject of disclosing your compensation

#15

Post by raganwald » Thu, Nov 18, 2010, 4:51 PM UTC

thalur wrote: post #9

How does this work out if you believe you are significantly under-compensated at your current job (assuming it's the peak for the last five years)?

Are you including ALL of the compensation in calculating "Y?" Let me help. I currently work with Unspace Interactive. They're downtown. Most programming jobs require a commute of some sort. What's my time worth? Let's pick $100 an hour based on the fact that I recall paying some random contractor that exact figure for some fun week-end moonlighting recently.

So if I save one hour a day because of Unspace's location, I'm going to add $100 times 250 working days a year to Y, or $25,000 a year on top of everything else (beverages, BBQs, whatever).

If that number is still significantly lower than the compensation you're after, be up front: "My comp has ranged from X to Y, but I think I'm worth Z to you because of a, b, and c."

Ultimately, every job interview boils down to explaining why Z is the right number and why it's in the employer's best interests to pay Z. If you can't explain that to an employer, you aren't going to get Z. I don't make these rules up, it's economics in the small.

Re: On the subject of disclosing your compensation

#16

Post by olivolive » Thu, Nov 18, 2010, 4:51 PM UTC

jemfinch wrote: post #11

CodeMage wrote: post #3

Great advice. It took me years to learn it on my own. One thing I would like to add is there are times you have to clam up completely and refuse to give out even a range. At one of the companies I worked for, they had a weird policy of not hiring people if their new salary would exceed their old salary by more than 20%. Now, I can understand some of the reasoning behind it, but I personally find it detestable. The be…

Can you explain some of the reasoning behind that policy, because I don't understand it.

A reason I've heard is that they want people who really want to work at The Company, not people who are motivated by the pay bump.

Re: On the subject of disclosing your compensation

#17

Post by kscaldef » Thu, Nov 18, 2010, 4:55 PM UTC

bluedevil2k wrote: post #2

There's been a lot of talk about this lately, and I think I have another vantage point on it. All this talk about "don't reveal your current salary", "hide your current compensation" is totally relaying weakness to anyone you're negotiating with. Take control of the negotiation! Be the confident person who knows exactly what they want! (Even if you don't really know that). Right now is a great time to be negotiating…

Outright lying during the interview process is almost certainly grounds for a no-hire or dismissal if you get the job and they find out later. It's fine to refuse to give that information. It's fine to say "This is the salary I want". It's not okay to falsely represent your salary any more than it would be okay to falsely represent your job title, your education, your certifications, etc.

Re: On the subject of disclosing your compensation

#18

Post by raganwald » Thu, Nov 18, 2010, 4:57 PM UTC

jemfinch wrote: post #11

CodeMage wrote: post #3

Great advice. It took me years to learn it on my own. One thing I would like to add is there are times you have to clam up completely and refuse to give out even a range. At one of the companies I worked for, they had a weird policy of not hiring people if their new salary would exceed their old salary by more than 20%. Now, I can understand some of the reasoning behind it, but I personally find it detestable. The be…

Can you explain some of the reasoning behind that policy, because I don't understand it.

Such rules are usually driven by HR, not by hiring managers. The hiring manager's motivation is to get something done. Your compensation is a rounding error on the revenues from a successful product or whatever it is you are hired to create.

HR, on the other hand, exists to create a "system." One of the primary properties of the system they are trying to create is predictability. If you have a process of some sort, anybody ought to be able to put the same inputs in and get the same outputs out.

Thus, they look for a good way to explain what you are offered. Capping it based on your previous compensation is a nice, simple rule that fits well with a process. Paying you some random amount based on how urgent your skills are needed on a team is not a repeatable process.

In a weird way, although HR talk a good line about people and soft skills and values and missions, they behave just like autistic programmers: They put numbers and rules ahead of people and priorities.

Re: On the subject of disclosing your compensation

#19

Post by kscaldef » Thu, Nov 18, 2010, 4:57 PM UTC

SimonPStevens wrote: post #10

This might work fine for contractors, but it's nonsense for permanent employees. 5 years covers a range from my first graduate job to my current reasonably good mid-level salary. If I gave that range to a recruiter I'd end up at a bunch of interviews with companies all trying to offer me close to a graduate salary.

a) what raganwald said.

b) Some people have more than 5 years of work experience. One day, you will too.

c) 5 years is not hard and fast. Feel free to make it 3 years or whatever you think works for you.

Re: On the subject of disclosing your compensation

#20

Post by SimonPStevens » Thu, Nov 18, 2010, 5:00 PM UTC

raganwald wrote: post #12

SimonPStevens wrote: post #10

This might work fine for contractors, but it's nonsense for permanent employees. 5 years covers a range from my first graduate job to my current reasonably good mid-level salary. If I gave that range to a recruiter I'd end up at a bunch of interviews with companies all trying to offer me close to a graduate salary.

The context here is that a recruiter calls you and says, "Y Combinator is looking for an Arc programmer to work on new versions of the language as well as maintain the HN site. Please give me your resumé and your current salary." You say, "Here's my resumé." The recruiter demands the salary, saying that Paul won't interview anyone without it. My first advice is that you can just say no. The sun will still shine, you'…

I totally agree with your first step (say no).

Like you say though, with the range idea I suppose you have to balance the likelihood of getting low offers. Personally, giving a range like this just gives them a range to make their offers in, which will result in a lower offer than my current salary every time (as my salary has always increased, so the current is always the peak).

If I'm going to give a range, I'd rather give a range from current+x% - current+y%

Of course, that suffers from the same problem as most other ideas, which is they may have been prepared to offer far more, but reduce because they know you'll accept current+x%.