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The Rest of Us Always Knew Churchill Was a Villain

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Re: The Rest of Us Always Knew Churchill Was a Villain

#41

Meh. It's sad, but the structure of the universe is probably such that one cannot become a leader of millions without being a villain.

You can ignore any villainy by this formula. "All leaders are villains, so I'm turning my attention elsewhere." As Edmund Burke or someone said, "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Also, it relies on equating hard moral choices with villainy. A hard moral choice is making citizen A hungrier so citizen B doesn't starve. Villainy is robbing citizen A to enrich citizen B becau…

The post you are replying to merely makes a statement, not the ethical argument that you have interpreted it as (though your distinction between hard choices and villainy is important.)

I happen to think that it is an incorrect statement, and that, while leaders of millions will make mistakes, they need not necessarily be villainous.

To be clear, I am not claiming that Churchill's actions in Ireland, Iraq and India were merely mistakes - the worst of them, together with the attitudes that allegedly justified them, belong in the annals of infamy.

Re: The Rest of Us Always Knew Churchill Was a Villain

#42
The one party that seems to go unscathed or are even in power positions are the princes that chose to ally with the British to retain their kingdoms. The Last Nizam went to become an MP for a long time. His violent Razakar militia morphed into Political party and wins every Parliamentary election in Hyderabad. The Scindias of Gwalior are power players in both the INC and BJP. There are numerous other royal descendants that have FAT fortunes and local name recognition and political cache.

Indians can hate Winston Churchill all they want, and they can beg the liberal leaning administrations of Oxford and other British academia to throw away busts of Churchill. All the while naming colleges and universities after people who allied with British and treated their population worse than British have treated Indians.

Winston Churchill is a villian but the Indian allies of British are the worst scoundrels.

Re: The Rest of Us Always Knew Churchill Was a Villain

#43
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would not be surprised if this was true, or at least had a significant amount of truth to it. It reminds me of the Zimmermann telegram that brought the US into WW1. The UK and the US both knew that Mexico was not going to help Germany (what with a Mexican revolution going on and all that), but the telegram was a convenient enough excuse for the US to join the war in Europe anyway. The parallel here is that the US a…

> "Plus; how would you stop it?" Well the primary targets, the carriers, weren't present. That was fortunate for America, to put it lightly. With the carriers missing, the attacking Japanese pilots focused their attacks on Battleship Row, against which they did severe damage. It should be noted however that after the first attack wave, the USN managed to put up very dense anti-aircraft fire that impeded the Japanese…

The ironic thing is that US Radar stations picked up the incoming Japanese aircraft while they were still miles offshore - but believed they were a flight of B-17's that were arriving from the mainland.

Re: The Rest of Us Always Knew Churchill Was a Villain

#44

The article says: "Thanks to Churchill’s personal decisions, more than 3 million Bengalis died of hunger in a 1943 famine. Churchill deliberately ordered the diversion of food from starving Indian civilians to well-supplied British soldiers and even to top up European stockpiles, meant for yet-to-be-liberated Greeks and Yugoslavs. “The starvation of anyway underfed Bengalis is less serious” than that of “sturdy Greek…

Fascinating thanks, I never knew about this, so I became curious about the causes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bengal_famine_of_1943#Debate_a... It certainly seems like an area of controversy, but is it so clear cut that it was Churchill's fault? It seems like the main takeaways are: > Academic consensus generally follows the FEE account, as formulated by A. Sen (1977) and A. Sen (1981a), in describing the Bengal f…

It's kinda obvious why its down-voted. Most people in on this site are western and are biased against this sort of information.

Re: The Rest of Us Always Knew Churchill Was a Villain

#45
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Plus; how would you stop it?" Well the primary targets, the carriers, weren't present. That was fortunate for America, to put it lightly. With the carriers missing, the attacking Japanese pilots focused their attacks on Battleship Row, against which they did severe damage. It should be noted however that after the first attack wave, the USN managed to put up very dense anti-aircraft fire that impeded the Japanese…

The US broke the Japanese crypto and naval signals well before the war. I’m curious how they missed the boat (no pun intended) on the massive attack. I vaguely remember the radio operators mistaking it as nothing which delayed the defences - as the hundreds of aircrafts came into view on radar. But beyond that how could they not have intercepted the planning beforehand? I’m not suggesting a conspiracy just curious.

The Opana Radar Site on the north corner of the island detected the Japanese aircraft approaching, and the radar operators there reported it to their command. However this report was confused for a formation of B-17s that was scheduled to arrive from that general direction. The size of the detected formation, which might have revealed the confusion, was not properly communicated.

This incident was a subplot in the 1970 film Tora! Tora! Tora!, which may be where you heard it.

Re: The Rest of Us Always Knew Churchill Was a Villain

#46

Three million Indians died while food sailed West. http://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,2031992... The death tolls in the East during the Second World War (far greater in China than in India certainly) are absolutely staggering. Churchill's policy in Bengal was Mao-esque in malice and incompetence.

Which policy, specifically?

The only policy I know of was mobilizing the military to transport food and aid to the famine stricken regions during wartime.

I suppose you're suggesting that more food and resources should have been diverted, regardless of the consequences elsewhere, and without concern for any other event unfolding at the time in the region.

Genocidal? I don't think so.

Re: The Rest of Us Always Knew Churchill Was a Villain

#47
post #18
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which naval operations? WW1 or WW2?

I am not sure what the parent specifically has in mind, but Churchill wasn't Navy Minister during WW2, and didn't have the same direct control over the navy like he did in WW1, where he really blundered through it. Indeed, I might imagine the UK doing better in WW2, because Churchill was less in direct control of operations.

Churchill was First Lord of the Admiralty before he took over from Chamberlain.

He was very much responsible for the Norwegian Campaign, which was widely considered a fiasco that handed Hitler a decisive victory and gave the latter enough political momentum to continue with his war plans.

https://www.historynet.com/scandinavian-twist-churchills-194...

Re: The Rest of Us Always Knew Churchill Was a Villain

#48
> In 2017, Tharoor put the British Prime Minister Winston Churchill in the same category as some of "the worst genocidal dictators" of the 20th century, saying that Churchill is "one of the more evil rulers of the 20th century only fit to stand in the company of the likes of Hitler, Mao and Stalin. Churchill has as much blood on his hands as Hitler does. Particularly the decisions that he personally signed off during the Bengal Famine when 4.3 million people died because of the decisions he took or endorsed.

The author has toned down his message in this piece whilst still banging the same drum. And I'm not sure why. The guy was flawed, sure. He was both a renowned wit and a racist, who had to make some unbelievably hard decisions during wartime. One of those decisions unfortunately exacerbated a famine already well into the making[1], a thing Tharoor seems to ignore each time he brings it up. Instead he imagines that Churchill himself pushed a button saying "no shipping grain there because I'm racist" rather than than as a result of the nearly 1 million tonnes of ships lost in the Indian Ocean in a single year, stretching already stretched supplies to breaking point as the Allies continued fighting a war on 6 fronts across 3 continents.

I guess it's easy, you can repeatedly bring this up and tap into some anti-english sentiment within your countrymen. But why? The man can be both a hero and a villain in different parts of his life. You can appreciate the man of the hour whilst understanding that his views and actions in other parts of his life where outdated and by modern standards pretty disgusting.

You can also appreciate that without him WW2 may have gone very, very differently for both Europe and India. And maybe there is something to be thankful for in that. Personally I would think the Nazis would have done a lot worse things, and held even worse views.

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bengal_famine_of_1943#February...

Re: The Rest of Us Always Knew Churchill Was a Villain

#49
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

California has prop 13 which results in property taxes not keeping up with assessments.

To be fair, just because the marginal house sells for more doesn't mean that providing local services is commensurately more expensive.

Sure, but Churchill's point above is, "... he contributes nothing to the process from which his own enrichment is derived."

The more out of step taxation is with wealth creation, more accurate that point becomes. Whether or not that's a bad thing can be reasonably debated, I think.

Re: The Rest of Us Always Knew Churchill Was a Villain

#50
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which part is garbage? What do Chamberlain and Halifax have to do with whether Churchill is considered a villain?

Evidently fighting Nazis absolves you any crime against humanity. Vae victis I suppose. Edit: response to Ntrails: People find comfort in black and white worldviews. Pointing out that somebody who was a hero in one respect was a villain in other seems to induce some sort of dissonance that gets some people angry. The article says that Churchill was a villain with respect to British colonies, not in every conceivable…

He Was Both Hero And Villain

Why on earth do people find this so hard to comprehend?

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