U.S. Student Debt in ‘Serious Delinquency’ Tops $166B • Hacker News Board

Re: U.S. Student Debt in ‘Serious Delinquency’ Tops $166B

#121

Post by randomacct3847 » Sat, Feb 16, 2019, 7:11 PM UTC

I don’t regret going to a public college at all. College is more than just a job factory. You make some of your strongest friendships, connections, potentially future partner in school. You learn a lot about yourself.

Private edu costs are out of control, but if we can figure out how to cut costs then I don’t think the institution of college/higher ed should go away.

You have the rest of your life to work...as a working adult I don’t particularly wish I had skipped college and taken a 6-month online class instead so I could start working earlier.

Re: U.S. Student Debt in ‘Serious Delinquency’ Tops $166B

#122

Post by malvosenior » Sat, Feb 16, 2019, 7:12 PM UTC

zanny wrote: post #115

systematical wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Education is important, but I sometimes wonder if there is a whole lot of correlation does not equal causation going on here. What I mean is, statistics say those with a four year or higher degree earn more than those without. A correlation. But you might say that those who are predisposed with the aptitude for higher earning power are more likely to pursue a higher degree in the first place. It's this thought, that…

I feel like so many of the incentives in modern society are rigged to approach the "problem" of what to do with your people from the wrong end. You put them through public school to... train them to work in factories. Because that is the original and persistent intent of what a high school education leaves you capable of. You then siphon them into university then because... they need the means to live, and the only w…

Agree. This is an option today if you home school your child.

Re: U.S. Student Debt in ‘Serious Delinquency’ Tops $166B

#123

Post by pkaye » Sat, Feb 16, 2019, 7:12 PM UTC

toomuchtodo wrote: post #14

alkibiades wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the only way i’d support that is if the government gets out of the loan game and if we get rid of the provisions that prevent people from filing bankruptcy on the loans.

Yes, I would agree with this, along with government providing for free community college as well as subsidizing trade schools. Fresh slate and we start over as a country on the right foot for education delivery.

In California, community college is $46/unit. Typical full time enrollment is 12-15 units. And low income individuals get that fully covered. They are in the process of making the first year of community college fully subsidized for all residents.

Re: U.S. Student Debt in ‘Serious Delinquency’ Tops $166B

#124

Post by zanny » Sat, Feb 16, 2019, 7:12 PM UTC

wtvanhest wrote: post #12

Mountain_Skies wrote: post #6

Education is important. Access to education is important. But our current system of giving out student loans with no regard to if the student will ever have a realistic ability to repay borders on predatory. If we can't do anything to solve that portion of the problem, we should at least restrict the mandatory fees that are tacked on for non instructional purposes. No student should have to pay for decades to prop up…

If we are being honest, sports and minor non-instructional costs are minor vs the cost of small classrooms and professors. We need to vastly cut costs and sports and non-instructional costs wont move the needle.

The fact that many universities have tenured masters of their domain still having to, even with as many grad students as can fill a lecture hall, oversee 100 level courses that would fit in better at middle school than university is ridiculous.

Good professors are an extremely expensive thing to have, and students of merit deserve time with such masters that maximizes knowledge transfer. That almost always means not having regimented, graded curriculum taught by lecture from one singular book, but that is how almost all university courses operate.

Any time a professor repeats themself or is forced to do something mechanical or routine is a failure of the system to take advantage of their ability.

Re: U.S. Student Debt in ‘Serious Delinquency’ Tops $166B

#125

Post by skizm » Sat, Feb 16, 2019, 7:13 PM UTC

maxkwallace wrote: post #43

exabrial wrote: post #22

No creditor would give a loan to someone who doesn't have a chance of paying it back. There are kids going to school for music therapy that are taking $100K in debt. It's time to end government subsidized loans, at least in the current form. The private market does a great job of evaluating risk, the only thing that needs to be done is ensure there is ample competition so it self-regulates.

In principle I agree, but in practice, it seems like private lenders are empirically doing a bad job evaluating risk. Rates for private loans are so high they can only be explained by a high default rate, even among "low-risk" demographics. These rates are very high even for students that we'd view as a low credit risk (e.g. studying CS and not music therapy). I think this shows the private market is doing a poor job…

Student loans don't go away in bankruptcy, even private ones. There is no risk even if you loan a poor student $150k to go to art school since you have the rest of their life to garnish wages from them.

Re: U.S. Student Debt in ‘Serious Delinquency’ Tops $166B

#126

Post by malvosenior » Sat, Feb 16, 2019, 7:14 PM UTC

randomacct3847 wrote: post #121

I don’t regret going to a public college at all. College is more than just a job factory. You make some of your strongest friendships, connections, potentially future partner in school. You learn a lot about yourself. Private edu costs are out of control, but if we can figure out how to cut costs then I don’t think the institution of college/higher ed should go away. You have the rest of your life to work...as a work…

I think this is the strongest argument against student debt relief. I would certainly not pay for someone else to do this:

"You make some of your strongest friendships, connections, potentially future partner in school. You learn a lot about yourself."

Re: U.S. Student Debt in ‘Serious Delinquency’ Tops $166B

#127

Post by RGamma » Sat, Feb 16, 2019, 7:15 PM UTC

From a European perspective I can only shake my head at this.

It doesn't seem like a good idea at all to indebt a significant part of the young population (which I presume creates a lot of avoidable stress) while the rich gain in wealth and power year after year. But I guess longer-term thinking has been thrown overboard in economic decision/policy making anyway, because that would make the numbers not grow fast enough.

Recently I'm under the impression that American society has been tearing itself apart more than is healthy, damaging social cohesion to a great deal. Good luck building an advanced society on distrust and inequality though...

Re: U.S. Student Debt in ‘Serious Delinquency’ Tops $166B

#128

Post by i_am_proteus » Sat, Feb 16, 2019, 7:16 PM UTC

The entire credit system for education ends up combining government spending and market forces in the worst ways possible. The Federal Reserve Bank of NY drew some conclusions a few years ago to this extent.[0]

The Federal government provides an enormous amount of free/"free" credit, the schools get cash and the students take on the risk. Coupled with the role of academic institutions as gatekeepers of a shot at a better future, and we get the system we have. Hyperbolically, t only outcomes schools are incentivized to care about are applications (lower acceptance rates raise prestige) and attendance (money is transferred to the school only while the student is attending).

[0] https://www.newyorkfed.org/medialibrary/media/research/staff...

Re: U.S. Student Debt in ‘Serious Delinquency’ Tops $166B

#129

Post by iguy » Sat, Feb 16, 2019, 7:17 PM UTC

zanny wrote: post #115

systematical wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Education is important, but I sometimes wonder if there is a whole lot of correlation does not equal causation going on here. What I mean is, statistics say those with a four year or higher degree earn more than those without. A correlation. But you might say that those who are predisposed with the aptitude for higher earning power are more likely to pursue a higher degree in the first place. It's this thought, that…

I feel like so many of the incentives in modern society are rigged to approach the "problem" of what to do with your people from the wrong end. You put them through public school to... train them to work in factories. Because that is the original and persistent intent of what a high school education leaves you capable of. You then siphon them into university then because... they need the means to live, and the only w…

> STEM career and simply shadowed professionals for 4-8 years and learned through first hand experience

I believe that's called a PhD :)

But I totally agree that much of the system we've invented is a mistake, basically from having the causality backwards. People who went to university did well, made more than those who worked in factories. So we decided that (after closing the factories) we should send the entire population there, so they can all do well! But it doesn't work like that...

Re: U.S. Student Debt in ‘Serious Delinquency’ Tops $166B

#130

Post by zanny » Sat, Feb 16, 2019, 7:18 PM UTC

exabrial wrote: post #22

No creditor would give a loan to someone who doesn't have a chance of paying it back. There are kids going to school for music therapy that are taking $100K in debt. It's time to end government subsidized loans, at least in the current form. The private market does a great job of evaluating risk, the only thing that needs to be done is ensure there is ample competition so it self-regulates.

> The private market does a great job of evaluating risk

Like it did in 2007? One in a million voices might have even thought to bring up how spoiled the housing loan market was, but the markets kept singing the tune of growth until hundred year old banks were out of business from loan defaults. That was the government pushing bad loan policy on private banks who lopped them up like candy from a free money fountain until everyone involved got a taste of reality.

Private industry easily gets caught in its own deliriums in pursuit of endless profit.