> No one was sending you encrypted emails anyway Guess what! Since I moved to Germany (from the Netherlands), I noticed that people send a lot of encrypted mail. Not random Germans, sure, but where in the Netherlands the security and broader hacker community was hard to convince, in Germany it's quite widespread. My colleagues (security firm) and friendly security firms (when we collaborate) expect nothing less, and…
Everyone at the office sends encrypted emails when referring to sensitive data. It helps that encrypting emails is one button away on Outlook.
Modern Alternatives to PGP
161–170 of 261 posts
Re: Modern Alternatives to PGP
#162The opening paragraph is off-putting:
> Did your last Yubikey just break?
Is this supposed to imply that I'm not supposed to be inconvenienced by my security token breaking? Of course I am. I've lost and misplaced my Nitrokey on numerous occasions, leaving me completely locked out of my systems without physical access. That's a feature, and that's intended.
> Perhaps you forgot an offline backup password.
What does that have to do with PGP?
> Maybe you're just tired of living like a spy and never using smartphones.
That absolutely has nothing to do with PGP.
> Linux distributions and many other software update mechanisms use PGP signatures to prevent malicious mirrors or network attackers from altering the contents of their packages.
GnuPG's use here is hidden from the user by the package manager. Most users have no idea it's using PGP, and don't understand what it is. They work through a package manager's abstractions. If you replaced PGP with something else, the user would likely be none the wiser. Why does it matter? Also, why do I want to abandon a keyring?
For manually verifying signatures: why does the weight of the tool matter? Is `gpgv' (which is probably already installed on your system) really weighing you down that much? Tools like signify emphasize keysize and speed compared to RSA. Do you _really_ notice as a user? Is that _really_ the bottleneck for what you're doing? It might be, but I suspect for your average user, it's not.
> I wrote one as a party trick last month – it's less than 200 lines of code and that includes some silly key parsing tricks.
Are we worried about attack surface? GPG is heavily audited---you're far more likely to be pwned through one of the 100s of other poorly audited programs on your computer. And in any case, I don't care how easy it is to write---leave the crypto to the experts. An easy-to-understand implementation is great and certainly preferred where possible, but that's only part of the battle. And tools like GnuPG already have their implementations written and audited by numerous parties over the years. That doesn't mean they're bug-free, but it's not like we're starting from scratch here.
> Original need: You want to store individual pieces of data without making their contents accessible to anyone else on your system.
I'm not arguing against the use of other programs, but I see nothing wrong with GnuPG (or PGP) for this. Again, it's a widely supported tool that's probably already available on your system, and it probably came with your distribution image, so it probably can also be trusted. Directing users to install programs is a risk in its own unless it can be authenticated through the distribution's package manager---users must understand how to verify the program themselves otherwise.
Using GnuPG also gives you some other benefits for free, like support for a smartcard, even over SSH. (You should generally prefer symmetric algorithms for long-term secrets, but if you know your threat model, or have secrets that are easily changed or don't need to stay secret long term, asymmetric may be a fine choice for you if you gain the benefit of a security token.)
> Original need: You have files that you want to send to another person, but you don't want the data to be visible in transit or stored in the cloud. For this, folks often attach an encrypted ZIP file to an email.
> Modern alternative: magic-wormhole.
This works out great (or a tool like OnionShare) if it actually addresses your problem. But what if I want to encrypt files to N people who may be online at different times, and store that file somewhere? What if I _do_ actually want to communicate over email? I happen to do most of my communication with online communities via email.
PGP does suffer from many legitimate issues, like forward secrecy. Certainly use the right tool for the job. I'm not going to use PGP as an alternative to OMEMO, for example---they're fundamentally different.
Things that certain people see as weaknesses, like logistical issues surrounding the establishment and maintenance of a web of trust, aren't weaknesses to others. I have no problem with people suggesting useful tools for certain tasks. But I'm frustrated by the FUD around PGP, as if it's insufficient for any job. It does work, it is battle-tested, and it is trusted.
Re: Modern Alternatives to PGP
#163Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm not so sure this is a great idea, quite commonly when reverse engineering something I need a good reliable implementation of a dated cipher. MD4 is still used in NTLM, RIPEMD160 is still used in Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies, etc. Systems exist outside of the Go ecosystem and not all systems are new. Compatibility is important. It's great to flag these as not recommend for new designs, but it's quite another…
How is it possible for so many people to read the words "not remove" as "remove entirely"?
Re: Modern Alternatives to PGP
#164As far as I can tell none of these "alternatives" implement what is at least for me the most interesting feature of PGP: web of trust and key servers. It would be really nice to see a modern take on this. > No one was sending you encrypted emails anyway I actually use PGP for e-mailing quite often, for instance: how am I supposed to report security issues without gpg? (please don't suggest Whatsapp...)
Re: Modern Alternatives to PGP
#165Re: Modern Alternatives to PGP
#166> The "modern alternative" is to use a much more specific and much less configurable solution to your problem. The problem is you're replacing one configurable, flexible thing, with N different specific solutions involving multiple obscure little utilities. Oops! How can this blogger not see that this isn't better. How about a modern alternative to git? Instead of one hydra with so many heads, why not use scp for tra…
Because it is better. You don't get sound cryptosystems from configurable, flexible things; flexibility is the mortal enemy of cryptographic soundness. That's how "this blogger" "not see" that this isn't better. This isn't some fringe belief among hipster cryptography engineers (among which I'm sure George counts himself). You can read it straight out of _Cryptography Engineering_.
The aspect of PGP I like is the UI integration. At least when using GPG Tools. I can double click on an asymmetric encrypted file and GPG tools will decrypt it. Likewise my mail client can encrypt/decrypt/sign/verify emails automatically with GPGs plugin.
If there’s a straightforward equivalent for modern crypto that is easy for users to install and use, let me know because I’d be interested in using it.
Re: Modern Alternatives to PGP
#167Earlier quoted context omitted.
I feel like this is asking past the point. Without a web of trust, how are you securely signing? You can go with somewhat centralized trust, but that only gets you do far. Or, rather, that forces everyone to deal with that centralized source. Much like the web of trust.
> Without a web of trust, how are you securely signing? I can only think you're making a bunch of hidden assumptions about how trust works or why you would want to sign or encrypt data. Maybe you're thinking specifically about things like email, where web of trust might make more sense. Consider, for example, if I'm doing backups and I just want to encrypt them for my eyes only. How could a web of trust even possibly…
I mean, yes. Pgp is a bad fit for that. So is tls.
Re: Modern Alternatives to PGP
#168Some problems PGP (these days, this means GnuPG) solves pretty well for me: - offline encryption; - distributed web of trust; - digital signature (for messages and software packages); - batch processing; - certification of other users without a server at all; - ability to use a completely "offline" infrastructure; - sending messages without revealing the actual recipient (i.e. --hidden-recipient) - multiplatform; - e…
Of your list, the alternatives that George provided check off: - offline encryption - digital signatures - batch processing - no server - offline infrastructure - "hidden recipient" (which, ironically, is a command line flag to mitigate a flaw in PGP, and not in fact a feature of PGP) - multiplatform - easy to integrate - copying and pasting ciphertext - open source and well-tested - not bound to phones - not being a…
I don't understand. --encrypt and --decrypt are command line flags too, but surely those count as features.
Re: Modern Alternatives to PGP
#169Earlier quoted context omitted.
Because it is better. You don't get sound cryptosystems from configurable, flexible things; flexibility is the mortal enemy of cryptographic soundness. That's how "this blogger" "not see" that this isn't better. This isn't some fringe belief among hipster cryptography engineers (among which I'm sure George counts himself). You can read it straight out of _Cryptography Engineering_.
What if PGP was updated to remove the old cipher suites and only support modern ones like Curve25519 Poly1305 ChaCha20 etc? (At least for newly created keys/sigs/encrypted files) The aspect of PGP I like is the UI integration. At least when using GPG Tools. I can double click on an asymmetric encrypted file and GPG tools will decrypt it. Likewise my mail client can encrypt/decrypt/sign/verify emails automatically wit…
Re: Modern Alternatives to PGP
#170Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I wonder what it's caused by and how we can encourage it Probably because many Germans have a relatively recent memory of the Stasi in the DDR.
That's nice and all, and I don't doubt it, but in this instance, that cultural memory is (ironically) leading Germans to use inferior cryptography, and isn't serving them well.