Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

What principal investigators taught me about my failure to land tenure

nature.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

31–40 of 77 posts

Re: What principal investigators taught me about my failure to land tenure

#31

Post by gshulegaard »

retsibsi wrote: post #20
gshulegaard wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are reading that completely differently than how I read it. I personally think that the author is reflecting on the fact that he may have been not focused enough on completing a single task before starting another. It sounds (and this is speculative, I don't want to put words in the author's mouth) like the author would start with a hypothesis, run an experiment that generates data that appears to support that hy…

> As others have pointed out ~19 papers (and only 5 first author) over 23 years seems to be a low publication rate, which I think the author is reflecting on. Low compared to what? Compared to the expectations set by his fellow scientists in a field shaped by the norms and incentives in question . There's a circularity here (and in the earlier comment by Obi_Juan_Kenobi): apparently this guy's real problem was his ow…

By the author's own admission, he thinks he could have focused himself a little better. He isn't saying he would have had to cut corners and do poor science, just not "shoot himself in the foot" to use his own phrasing. In reflection it sounds like he thinks that there was an opportunity for him to publish more frequently without doing bad science.

This is why I don't read his self-reflection as necessarily being an illustration of the type of mindset that leads to the reproducibility crisis. It sounds like a reasonable scientist reflecting on things he might have reasonably done better with the benefit of hindsight. No where do I read the implication that he is lamenting his choice to not do shoddy/quick science for the sake of securing a tenure track position.

Moreover this is self reflection so a lot the things he is reflecting on are speculative in that he thinks they might have helped him find a tenured position, but he can't be sure. He even has this disclaimer at the beginning of his piece:

> I’m not claiming to know the formula for how to get tenured (if I had that, I would have used it for myself). Instead, I would like to offer the advice I’ve gathered.

Re: What principal investigators taught me about my failure to land tenure

#33

Post by roel_v »

Apart from the 'duh' factor about someone in their 40's with a whopping 5 first author papers not getting a tenure track position, and not just any, because she refused one in Hungary because 'it didn't fit in her life' (but then 5 years later she does move to Europe? - but anyway - ) ; the rest of the advice is actually quite good. Don't be a passive 'just doing what I'm told' graf student/underdoc, have a plan and make sure you drive your progress towards that plan instead of hoping someone else will carry you.

Re: What principal investigators taught me about my failure to land tenure

#34

Post by raincom »

For many in the third world countries, going to America for Ph.D or for postdoc is a way to get out of their native countries. However, if you are an American citizen or a citizen of any developed country, be careful about getting on that post doctoral treadmill, which Prof Katz calls this phenomenon.

http://katz.fastmail.us/scientist.html

Re: What principal investigators taught me about my failure to land tenure

#35

Post by freewilly1040 »

jurassic wrote: post #30
chrisseaton wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would it delay marriage? Are people holding out for partners with tenure?

Dating takes time, weddings cost money, and its hard to drag partner/spouse/family around the globe for each new short-term position. I once worked in a lab that joked about a “celibate for science” lifestyle. I think the PI really actually wanted that for his grad students.

I had a coworker in a lab who was married to another scientist. They had been married more than 5 years but had never lived in the same city.

Re: What principal investigators taught me about my failure to land tenure

#36

Post by Fomite »

Obi_Juan_Kenobi wrote: post #12

23 years of post-doc with 5 first-authors? That's really all you need to know: that's a terrible publication record for someone looking at tenure-track. A decent target is an average of one first/last author paper a year. Two one year and zero the next isn't a problem, but one every five years certainly is. This doesn't even get into the 'careerism' of picking safe but dependable projects; anyone making reasonable ch…

This. I had more than that as a graduate student.

Re: What principal investigators taught me about my failure to land tenure

#37

Post by Fomite »

gshulegaard wrote: post #13
gone35 wrote: post #2

Accept your data. According to one PI, success depends more on the people doing a project than on the topic of study; some people make their project work no matter what the topic is. Others block their own way to success because they require too much evidence. I, for one, have always been excessively critical of my own data. Although I am a meticulous experimenter, whenever my results seemed to confirm my hypothesis,…

You are reading that completely differently than how I read it. I personally think that the author is reflecting on the fact that he may have been not focused enough on completing a single task before starting another. It sounds (and this is speculative, I don't want to put words in the author's mouth) like the author would start with a hypothesis, run an experiment that generates data that appears to support that hy…

Yeah - I know scientists who do this and it has nothing to do with the reproducibility crisis. It's a desire to have a "complete" story, to have explored every nook and cranny, and have the perfect, flawless magnum opus of a paper.

That way lies madness.

Re: What principal investigators taught me about my failure to land tenure

#38

Post by Fomite »

roel_v wrote: post #33

Apart from the 'duh' factor about someone in their 40's with a whopping 5 first author papers not getting a tenure track position, and not just any, because she refused one in Hungary because 'it didn't fit in her life' (but then 5 years later she does move to Europe? - but anyway - ) ; the rest of the advice is actually quite good. Don't be a passive 'just doing what I'm told' graf student/underdoc, have a plan and…

I've been on search committees, and the number one thing that will kill someone is "They seem like a technician." Being good at implementing someone else's ideas is not the way to be a PI.

Self-direction is essential.

Re: What principal investigators taught me about my failure to land tenure

#39

Post by Fomite »

lijason wrote: post #11
in_cahoots wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m also from another field, but 19 papers and 5 first-author papers over 23 years is a huge red flag. Many graduate students wind up with 3-4 first-author papers by the time they graduate. I don’t know what he was doing with his time, but the publication record seems to be the elephant in the room.

To be fair, even though it seems low, paper output/metrics are very field dependent.

I'm close enough to their field to say that that's a really low number.

Re: What principal investigators taught me about my failure to land tenure

#40

Post by Fomite »

chrisseaton wrote: post #19
blancheneige wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Idk he might eventually grow tired of living off tuition and taxpayer money.

Would becoming tenured change that? I would have thought both postdocs and tenured researchers would usually be funded mostly by research grants.

They are.
Post reply on HN