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Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

nytimes.com

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Re: Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

#861

Post by betterunix2 »

nihonde wrote: post #823
stvswn wrote: post #663

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Big ticket? Of the abatements, only $500M (the portion related to construction) wasn't available to any business that met the state's requirements. Giveaway? These are tax incentives that are part of the state's tax code -- taking less in taxes to incentivize a particular action is not the same as giving away money that could be spent elsewhere (to illustrate why it isn't the same, that money is not currently availab…

Of all the crummy talking points defending Amazon in this situation, the most odious is the idea that regular working New Yorkers lost an opportunity to get good jobs and upgrade their livelihoods. Amazon has an established record of being terrible to its workforce, and any fool knows that the workers in Amazon HQ2 aren’t going to be regular joes in Queens. At best, ordinary New Yorkers had a shot at serving HQ2 exec…

LIC and the rest of the broader NYC region has been undergoing gentrification for many years now, and Amazon probably would not have had much impact on that. Amazon's vertical integration will impact local businesses regardless of where they place their offices. The reason New Yorkers are not going to suffer is that there are tons of jobs in NYC and numerous big corporate offices. This is probably one of the most overblown issues in NYC politics that I can remember.

Re: Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

#862

Post by BurningFrog »

asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: post #842
bko wrote: post #808

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see it as a "what can you do for me". A lot of Amazon's interest were aligned with that of many New Yorkers. Both Amazon and most New Yorkers want to have a strong transportation system and a diverse economy that doesn't just rely on taxing bloated financial bonuses to pay for services. They also want New York to be an in-demand tech hub with a deep labor pool and be a place where people actually want to live…

I'm of two minds on this issue, but: how can the city have good mass transit if there are no tax dollars to pay for it?

One factor is that NY pays 5-10 times more than comparable cities to build its mass transit: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/28/nyregion/new-york-subway-...

Re: Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

#863

Post by fiter »

philwelch wrote: post #847
ceejayoz wrote: post #840

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a bit disingenuous, isn't it? This particular thread of comments started when you reacted to criticism of "cheap factory-farmed meat".

Because that's when it became clear that's what was meant by "animal cruelty" in the first place, at least by the person I was responding to.

I'm pretty unconvinced. I don't see any reason to believe your line of reasoning; that the original poster is a hyperbolic vegan. Do you have anything beyond your assertion?

Re: Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

#864

Post by rhizome »

asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: post #842
bko wrote: post #808

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see it as a "what can you do for me". A lot of Amazon's interest were aligned with that of many New Yorkers. Both Amazon and most New Yorkers want to have a strong transportation system and a diverse economy that doesn't just rely on taxing bloated financial bonuses to pay for services. They also want New York to be an in-demand tech hub with a deep labor pool and be a place where people actually want to live…

I'm of two minds on this issue, but: how can the city have good mass transit if there are no tax dollars to pay for it?

I'm under the impression that Amazon has never been a big taxpayer.

Re: Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

#865

Post by fiter »

anth_anm wrote: post #667
JJMcJ wrote: post #661

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NYC is very political. Surprised AMZN had such a thin skin. And after all this, they are going to move into vacant office buildings in DC near the airport, and in Nashville.

It's not a thin skin so much as it is submitting on an ongoing narrative. They probably hoped they could do this and end up with the tax breaks, the NYC offices they want, more favorable conditions, and the public would laud them for it. Instead they got a pretty massive backlash that adds more fuel to the already burning story about Amazon's mistreatment of workers, Amazon's 0% tax rate, Amazon lobbying defeating ta…

For some reason, it doesnt surprise me that Amazon is not very committed to hiring the kind of people that want to live in New York. While they're probably not enjoying their PR, I can't believe this is their biggest lost.

Re: Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

#866

Post by betterunix2 »

ChrisLomont wrote: post #798
airza wrote: post #787

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that economic activity will go _somewhere_, and allowing businesses to pressure them into tax breaks is collectively gutting the ability of many city governments to function.

Those city govts can choose 0 in new business or new business with jobs and income taxes and property value increases. A business choosing a location is a business transaction, as is city taxation choices. Both can freely choose how to woo the other. NYC chose to lose possible decades of high paying jobs over their unwillingness to deal.

NYC is not exactly desperate. NYC is the anchor of an enormous economy that houses dozens upon dozens of large corporate offices and a vast number of jobs at all pay levels. NYC can afford to not deal with a corporation that is known for its poor working conditions and that did not even conduct its search in good faith.

Other cities are not so fortunate, but Amazon has no interest in truly desperate cities (or even cities that are not so desperate but could use the boost, like Newark and Baltimore).

Re: Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

#867

Post by nihonde »

betterunix2 wrote: post #861
nihonde wrote: post #823

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of all the crummy talking points defending Amazon in this situation, the most odious is the idea that regular working New Yorkers lost an opportunity to get good jobs and upgrade their livelihoods. Amazon has an established record of being terrible to its workforce, and any fool knows that the workers in Amazon HQ2 aren’t going to be regular joes in Queens. At best, ordinary New Yorkers had a shot at serving HQ2 exec…

LIC and the rest of the broader NYC region has been undergoing gentrification for many years now, and Amazon probably would not have had much impact on that. Amazon's vertical integration will impact local businesses regardless of where they place their offices. The reason New Yorkers are not going to suffer is that there are tons of jobs in NYC and numerous big corporate offices. This is probably one of the most ove…

True about LIC already undergoing gentrification. But it’s still kind of affordable, at least to young white collar workers who are priced out of Manhattan or the expensive parts of Brooklyn. Amazon execs are paid big bucks. My friends who work there left behind multi-million dollar salaries without missing a beat. Having that kind of money fall into a developing area would ensure that even the baby bankers and lawyers were sent packing to the Bronx or Newark or wherever.

Re: Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

#868

Post by betterunix2 »

Androider wrote: post #768
Q6T46nT668w6i3m wrote: post #646

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except it isn’t 0. It’s far from 0! LIC’s growth is really impressive without Amazon.

The waterfront is slowly getting nicer, but as soon as you go even a few blocks inwards it's still sketchy and/or industrial. An anchor like Amazon HQ would have had a ripple effect of improving the whole area (like maybe we could finally get a decent grocery store? It's cheaper to take the train into Manhattan and go to Whole Foods than visiting the local LIC Food Cellar and Key Food markets!), especially the more e…

I guess the huge Citigroup office does not count? Also when last I looked a bunch of high rises were going up near Sunnyside Yard which is pretty far from the waterfront.

When I was 16 LIC was a pretty sketchy place, but as of a few years ago when I lived there it was completely different. There is still some light industry related to food trucks and taxi cabs, but you have to walk pretty far to get to anything more significant. The only sketchy area I can think of is the Queensbridge projects but that is north of the 59th st. bridge and pretty far from the rest of the neighborhood.

Re: Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

#869

Post by betterunix2 »

fiter wrote: post #865
anth_anm wrote: post #667

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a thin skin so much as it is submitting on an ongoing narrative. They probably hoped they could do this and end up with the tax breaks, the NYC offices they want, more favorable conditions, and the public would laud them for it. Instead they got a pretty massive backlash that adds more fuel to the already burning story about Amazon's mistreatment of workers, Amazon's 0% tax rate, Amazon lobbying defeating ta…

For some reason, it doesnt surprise me that Amazon is not very committed to hiring the kind of people that want to live in New York. While they're probably not enjoying their PR, I can't believe this is their biggest lost.

"The kind of people that want to live in New York" includes Google, Microsoft, Facebook, and Amazon employees (Amazon has about 5000 employees in NYC already). There is also the financial sector with all those quants and risk managers and whatnot. I am pretty sure Amazon wants to hire people like that but convincing them to move to Nashville won't be easy.

Re: Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

#870

Post by fiter »

betterunix2 wrote: post #869
fiter wrote: post #865

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For some reason, it doesnt surprise me that Amazon is not very committed to hiring the kind of people that want to live in New York. While they're probably not enjoying their PR, I can't believe this is their biggest lost.

"The kind of people that want to live in New York" includes Google, Microsoft, Facebook, and Amazon employees (Amazon has about 5000 employees in NYC already). There is also the financial sector with all those quants and risk managers and whatnot. I am pretty sure Amazon wants to hire people like that but convincing them to move to Nashville won't be easy.

I can't find any numbers, but for comparison, do you know how many Walmart employees live in New York?
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