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I Bought a House with Solar Panels

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Re: I Bought a House with Solar Panels

#241
post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't go unsold, everyone pays via subsidies.

Why can't the business suffer losses instead of everyone pay subsidies?

Because public traded business must be greedy in America. They will be sued by share holder of they are not greedy.

Re: I Bought a House with Solar Panels

#242
post #13

When you get down into the meat of how the tax credits and Sunrun's financing work it's astonishing. Essentially it sounds like Sunrun's investors are paying to install solar panels on your house so they can claim the tax credit to offset their own income. Meanwhile you are paying Sunrun for the electricity generated by the solar panels. There doesn't seem to be much benefit for the homeowner. You're better off buyin…

When Sunrun got started, no one wanted to issue loans for residential solar. It was a new unproven technology, and the accounting departments at places big enough to provide these kinds of loans at scale just didn't know how to factor the risk. The article calls these TPO's, but in the industry the more common term is PPA's -- Power Purchase Agreements. That's more how large solar farms work -- they find a buyer will…

What kind of rates and from which lenders are you seeing on solar loans in 2019? Thinking of it in the next 10 years, wondering about the specifics of cost in the Boston area.

Re: I Bought a House with Solar Panels

#243
post #150
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s because government subsidies always have to be twisted into the shape of a tax cut to avoid triggering low information voters.

Huh? Electric car subsidies were just that, subsidies (i.e. Tesla cars were cheaper).

How are you defining subsidy? Tesla cars were not cheaper at the price level, a buyer in 2018 and before just gets a tax credit of $7,500 upon tax filing.

Re: I Bought a House with Solar Panels

#244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have kept records of the power we've consumed, the power we've generated, the cost of the system and the cost of repairs/maintenance (one panel and one inverter so far over its lifetime). For the financial analysis we assumed the money would be committed to paying for power one way or the other, there isn't really an option for putting it aside in the mutual fund so the 'invest' option was off the table. With the…

$250/mo is a pretty generous number to compare against. Our >2500 sqft house averages under $100/mo. With the fairly extreme heat we have in in Texas, and A/C set to frigid while we’re home our bill _peaks_ at ~$150 in August. Well..that’s after a $1000 investment in attic insulation the first month we moved in.

Do you keep track of your KWh per month? If so, consider reading this page: https://www.pge.com/en_US/residential/rate-plans/rate-plan-o... and then plugging in the numbers. That will give you an idea.

For my house in Nov of 2014 the tiers were Tier 1: 15 cents/kwh Tier 2: 18 cents/kwh Tier 3: 26 cents/kwh Tier 4: 32 cents/kwh

And the baseline allowance is 10KWh a day (our house typically uses 24 - 28KWh per day.

Put those numbers in to your power bill and tell me what the number comes out to.

Re: I Bought a House with Solar Panels

#245
post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it wouldn't. For the same reason that me operating a coal power plant in my backyard wouldn't provide me with cheaper electricity then just buying from the grid. A centralized utility, even a poorly run one, will always provide electricity safer, cheaper, and more consistently then thousands of tiny private installations.

I like this argument but I disagree with it. I will stipulate that PG&E qualifies as a 'poorly run, centralized utility' and based on its billing it cannot provide power to residential homes for less money than a locally installed solar system can. The reasons for this are worth considering. PG&E has to maintain a power transmission infrastructure. That infrastructure has a high inspection cost, land use cost, equipm…

You cannot just look at $/MW costs when the goal is to have 100% generation adequacy (i.e. demand is uncontrolled, people can turn on loads within their home whenever they want and always expect to have adequate supply).

If loads are interruptible and you don't mind not being able to turn on your air conditioner at 10pm on a hot summer night, then sure, off-grid rooftop solar can be cheaper. Primarily, the way people who actually live off-grid operate is the same way people without running water wash dishes: you ration your consumption.

But most people want power for all their stuff, all the time. It will always be easier to plan for generation adequacy and resiliency centrally rather than every single power user having to install enough generation and storage to meet their own needs, 100% of the time.

Re: I Bought a House with Solar Panels

#246
The fact that this is about solar is diminishing the actual lessons here - don't sign contracts that are tied to your home's title. And if you find a home you love that has a contract on its title, just walk away before getting attached.

Re: I Bought a House with Solar Panels

#247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some folks manage to act and speak in the customer's interest and still sell things.

Sure, I just don't take their word. If they point out something that I was genuinely unaware of, and I can verify it, then of course it's in my interest to consider it. But as a general rule, I hope that I don't have to ask the salesman for any information.

Have you ever purchased something custom for business use?

Re: I Bought a House with Solar Panels

#248
post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't go unsold, everyone pays via subsidies.

Why can't the business suffer losses instead of everyone pay subsidies?

>Why can't the business suffer losses instead of everyone pay subsidies?

Because the old model of coal power plants makes people pay in other ways (pollution). Subsidies are reasonable if it means that the negative externalities are diminished.

Re: I Bought a House with Solar Panels

#249
post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you calculate savings at the 11-year mark? If you'd invested the same amount in index funds over an 11 year period you'd see your money double in an approximately 10 year period.

We have kept records of the power we've consumed, the power we've generated, the cost of the system and the cost of repairs/maintenance (one panel and one inverter so far over its lifetime). For the financial analysis we assumed the money would be committed to paying for power one way or the other, there isn't really an option for putting it aside in the mutual fund so the 'invest' option was off the table. With the…

What I mean is that your initial outlay either needed capital or a loan. This is money that could have been invested, with electricity bills taken out of that kitty. What's confusing me here is that you've said you've been saving $2600 per year in electricity costs but it took 11 years to save $20000 off your bills. Either you've averaged about $1800 per year in savings or you've spent more than $20k on the system + maintenance, or I'm missing something. Was there some sort of tax offset here to make it more cost effective?

The point I was trying to make is that a dollar spent 11 years ago isn't the same as a dollar spent today.

Re: I Bought a House with Solar Panels

#250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like this argument but I disagree with it. I will stipulate that PG&E qualifies as a 'poorly run, centralized utility' and based on its billing it cannot provide power to residential homes for less money than a locally installed solar system can. The reasons for this are worth considering. PG&E has to maintain a power transmission infrastructure. That infrastructure has a high inspection cost, land use cost, equipm…

You cannot just look at $/MW costs when the goal is to have 100% generation adequacy (i.e. demand is uncontrolled, people can turn on loads within their home whenever they want and always expect to have adequate supply). If loads are interruptible and you don't mind not being able to turn on your air conditioner at 10pm on a hot summer night, then sure, off-grid rooftop solar can be cheaper. Primarily, the way people…

Totally agree that it's easier to plan a centralized system over a decentralized one, provided that you adequately fund people to maintain all the components. (And trim trees!)

But have you ever been in a power outage, used your cell phone as a flashlight, and thought, "man, I wish my entire house ran off of a battery like my cell phone?"

A home builder already plans for 95% generation adequacy of hot water -- they literally find space in the floor plan for a hot water heater, and decide how big the tank should be. If you run out, either you ration usage or you buy a bigger water tank.

If home batteries had the right safety-energy density ratio (admittedly -- hard problem; see the RFS for Energy), you could just include one in the floor plan based on 80%ile usage, like the batteries in laptops, and cell phones, and electric cars. They're just too big and expensive now.

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