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Show HN: Scannable Chess Scoresheets

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Re: Show HN: Scannable Chess Scoresheets

#41

Post by zzo38computer »

gpm wrote: post #4

> Do not indicate checks, mates or promotions at all, i.e. leave out the "+," "#," or "=Q". Some of your screenshots include the +, is this accurate? If you don't include the =Q you can't encode all games?

I also thought of that. Sometimes it is possible by the following moves to know what the promotion is, although sometimes that is not the case, such as if the piece hasn't moved after that, then you might not be able to know what promotion it is if you do not write it down. (Trying to guess isn't very good unless it can be proven from the sequence of moves.)

Re: Show HN: Scannable Chess Scoresheets

#42

Post by zzo38computer »

Another way to make them to scan would be that there is one space you can just write free text and then next to them you can fill in the circles to indicate rank moved from, file moved from, rank moved to, file moved to, and promotion (if applicable). You can indicate castling by the king's move.

Re: Show HN: Scannable Chess Scoresheets

#43

Post by indy7500 »

doodpants wrote: post #35
indy7500 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(I am OP) I thought about doing it that way but found that handwriting recognition was pretty weak as of now and wanted to try something solid. The reason is, usually, handwriting recognition would take into account the following characters (it doesn't recognize individual characters at a time, it looks at a database of handwritten whole words). That would be the ideal if done well, of course.

I have no experience with handwriting recognition, but intuitively it seems like the facts that: a) the grammar for chess move notation is fairly limited; and b) each move must be valid relative to the current game state can be used as contextual clues to resolve ambiguous characters. Of course, this means you can't use an off-the-shelf handwriting recognition package that recognizes whole words like you describe, bu…

Now that I think about it, you're right. I don't know what the accuracy would be like, but it's certainly possible and worth a try.

Re: Show HN: Scannable Chess Scoresheets

#44

Post by indy7500 »

bambax wrote: post #39

> No recording errors: if it's "Bg4" and you write "Bg5", we can't help :( You can help by checking the legality of the current move (which you seem to already do) and also the rest of the game?

The way we check legality and adjust is with the character recognition. We use the second highest and third highest confidence characters. So, if you write a 5 and the model recognizes it as a 5 and then a 6 and 7, but really it's a 4, we can't help. This is because we'd add moves exponentially every time we add that many combinations

Re: Show HN: Scannable Chess Scoresheets

#45

Post by indy7500 »

doodpants wrote: post #35
indy7500 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(I am OP) I thought about doing it that way but found that handwriting recognition was pretty weak as of now and wanted to try something solid. The reason is, usually, handwriting recognition would take into account the following characters (it doesn't recognize individual characters at a time, it looks at a database of handwritten whole words). That would be the ideal if done well, of course.

I have no experience with handwriting recognition, but intuitively it seems like the facts that: a) the grammar for chess move notation is fairly limited; and b) each move must be valid relative to the current game state can be used as contextual clues to resolve ambiguous characters. Of course, this means you can't use an off-the-shelf handwriting recognition package that recognizes whole words like you describe, bu…

Also, a slight problem with b) is that it must be in the context of the whole game, since incorrect moves may only arise later on. This makes it harder with characters too ofc

Re: Show HN: Scannable Chess Scoresheets

#46

Post by indy7500 »

zzo38computer wrote: post #42

Another way to make them to scan would be that there is one space you can just write free text and then next to them you can fill in the circles to indicate rank moved from, file moved from, rank moved to, file moved to, and promotion (if applicable). You can indicate castling by the king's move.

That would be an awful lot of bubbles per move, no?

Re: Show HN: Scannable Chess Scoresheets

#47

Post by sdenton4 »

indy7500 wrote: post #6
gpm wrote: post #4

> Do not indicate checks, mates or promotions at all, i.e. leave out the "+," "#," or "=Q". Some of your screenshots include the +, is this accurate? If you don't include the =Q you can't encode all games?

I took the screenshot with the "+" before I realized it'd be easier for now to ignore the "+". This is my fault for being lazy, I'll change it. I looked at a database of lichess games (40,000) to convince myself that non-Queen promotions were worth ignoring for the beta. If promoting to a different piece is clearly the better move, I could run a Stockfish check anytime a promotion move is made to assume the player ch…

You could also 'assume queen until proven otherwise.' eg, if all remaining moves are diagonal, it stays a queen (even if it was really a bishop). And switch to an =K if you see a knight move (or the checkmate requires it to be a knight).

Re: Show HN: Scannable Chess Scoresheets

#48

Post by paulddraper »

gk1 wrote: post #8

This is neat. For anyone wondering why not just record the moves on your phone: Digital devices are not allowed at over-the-board tournament games.

Digital devices are allowed, as long as that device is a "Chess Notation Device".

This enables you to record and replace moves (including helping forecasting moves).

If everyone used these devices, then problem solved.

But I've only see someone using it once. Good chess players tend to already be good at visualizing past, present, and future positions.

Re: Show HN: Scannable Chess Scoresheets

#49

Post by theli0nheart »

indy7500 wrote: post #44
bambax wrote: post #39

> No recording errors: if it's "Bg4" and you write "Bg5", we can't help :( You can help by checking the legality of the current move (which you seem to already do) and also the rest of the game?

The way we check legality and adjust is with the character recognition. We use the second highest and third highest confidence characters. So, if you write a 5 and the model recognizes it as a 5 and then a 6 and 7, but really it's a 4, we can't help. This is because we'd add moves exponentially every time we add that many combinations

I don't get it. If Bg5 is an illegal move then the recognition is obviously wrong and you can prune it (I would think?).

Who am I to talk though, I'm not the one programming this thing. That's just what my gut tells me. :)

Re: Show HN: Scannable Chess Scoresheets

#50

Post by theli0nheart »

gmiller123456 wrote: post #31
gk1 wrote: post #8

This is neat. For anyone wondering why not just record the moves on your phone: Digital devices are not allowed at over-the-board tournament games.

As others have pointed out, there are digital scoresheets. But further, digital devices are not banned at OTB tournaments, most players will have a cell phone, and might even text or take calls. It's only in high stakes tournaments that you'll see cell phones banned, but even then it's only for the players. It's still perfectly legal, and extremely common for the game to be video recorded.

> But further, digital devices are not banned at OTB tournaments, most players will have a cell phone, and might even text or take calls.

I guess this may vary by country, but at least in the USA, phones have been banned in every "novice" tournament that I've participated in. Even books are off limits.

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