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Amazon, GM in talks to invest in electric pickup truck maker Rivian: sources

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Re: Amazon, GM in talks to invest in electric pickup truck maker Rivian: sources

#91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not parent, but we can make judgements on the specs alone - 180 kWh battery, 400+ mile-range, one motor per wheel (with possibility of left and right wheels going in opposite directions - they could theoretically reduce turning radius to almost 0 like a forklift or tank). That sounds superb to me.

> we can make judgements on the specs alone Can we? The vehicles we've seen are concepts. We know nothing of the build quality, reliability, safety, or a multitude of other characteristics of a mass-production version of these vehicles. A hand-built concept vehicle built in extremely low volumes for press outings (what they have now) would be expected to be impressive, but the real test is whether all of those wonder…

> Can we?

Absolutely! The norm in a lot of industries is to judge on projected figures (electronics, CPU, GPU, automotive, aerospace, mining, etc).

> We know nothing of the build quality, reliability, safety, or a multitude of other characteristics of a mass-production version of these vehicles.

"Superb" is subjective - I could say a 1965 Porsche 911 is a superb car, even though it compares terribly with a 2018 Toyota Corolla on build quality, reliability, safety or a number of other features.

Re: Amazon, GM in talks to invest in electric pickup truck maker Rivian: sources

#92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lots of people have theories as to what Tesla's problems are, but you'd be hard-pressed to find many Tesla owners who think they'd be better off with a dealer. I can name several things Tesla ought to do better, and none of them have anything to do with dealers.

Parts supply logistics and repair times wouldn't improve with dealers?

If Tesla can't supply enough parts introducing a dealer layer won't make the parts magically appear.

It would add more overhead to the transaction and if history is any indicator, sleazy interactions and business practices thrown in as well.

I'm fairly confident once the dust settles Tesla owners will be happy to not have auto dealers in their lives. There's just a teething period while Tesla ramps up to a mature manufacturer at scale.

Re: Amazon, GM in talks to invest in electric pickup truck maker Rivian: sources

#93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It can't just be bolted underneath or to the back Well, if it is bolted under, it needs its own cover/plate, which increases the weight of the surrounding structure (since whatever's there can't be structural).

It doesn't need a cover/plate. Every full-size or mid-size truck I've owned hoists the spare underneath the bed without a cover. Tires are very durable, and if something impacts the tire it's probably destroyed your differential, brakes, and/or axle too so the spare isn't terribly useful.

The aerodynamics, what parent was talking about, were why I said there would need to be a cover.

Re: Amazon, GM in talks to invest in electric pickup truck maker Rivian: sources

#94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Parts supply logistics and repair times wouldn't improve with dealers?

If Tesla can't supply enough parts introducing a dealer layer won't make the parts magically appear. It would add more overhead to the transaction and if history is any indicator, sleazy interactions and business practices thrown in as well. I'm fairly confident once the dust settles Tesla owners will be happy to not have auto dealers in their lives. There's just a teething period while Tesla ramps up to a mature man…

As a data point, Tesla isn't very good at delivering body parts to independent body shops. I don't see why dealers would be any more successful at nagging them.

I also suspect it's a lot easier for Tesla to fix their parts problem than it is for dealers to stop being smarmy.

Re: Amazon, GM in talks to invest in electric pickup truck maker Rivian: sources

#95
post #49

The Fully Charged YouTube channel did a great piece of this car: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMfxJEfb4lw If you're interested in electric cars then it's well worth a subscribe.

Yes, they do very informative reviews of basically any electric car you can name. They are self admitted EV fan boys of course but their reviews are interesting nonetheless. I've been subscribed for half a year or so and they seem to have good relations with a lot of manufacturers. E.g. they got an early test ride in a prototype VW e-golf recently. Also worth checking out their video on the electric land rover, similar to the Rivian product. It looks like electrical vehicles are going to be seriously competitive for off road stuff.

The Rivian product is extremely ambitious. The challenge for such a company is not going to be sales or marketing (like Teslas, these things should sell themselves) but the capital investments needed to go from the early product prototype stage to having the production capability to scale the business and serve their market. This investment makes a lot of sense for GM as they are essentially pretty far done with dismantling their combustion engine business and are now trying to ramp up their fully electric vehicle business as fast as they can before it is too late.

For those not familiar, the Rivian truck has tons of very practical features. Here's what I remember:

- Waterproof battery. This car can basically drive through a river without issues. The battery and engines can operate while fully submerged. The main challenge is stopping the car from floating or stopping the interior from flooding. When I was watching the review, I couldn't help wondering .... why not put a rudder and propeller on it already?!

-Individually operating engines on each wheel and they can even spin in opposite direction.

- Enormous torque. This car can pull enormously heavy loads. This is a big bonus since that is a common usecase for trucks like this.

- Huge amount of battery and a projected range of more than 400 miles.

- Tons of practical space, including front trunk, a storage space accessible with doors on both sides behind the cabin that you pull down that you can stand on to access e.g. the roof or sit on.

- A flashlight using one of the battery cylinders that they use internally as well that pops out of the door. Naturally, if you pop it back in it charges. This is a bit of a gimmick, but a clever one and it sounds super practical to always have a fully charged flashlight handy.

There was lots more but these were things that stood out to me. It seems like this should tick a lot of boxes for people interested in buying any kind of truck. Of course it remains to be seen if it lives up to expectations in terms of build quality, production volume, etc. But it looks like they are getting ready to ship in just a few years.

I don't actually own a car and doubt I ever will (I rent when I need one, which is a few times per year) but this one seems cool to me.

Re: Amazon, GM in talks to invest in electric pickup truck maker Rivian: sources

#96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we can make judgements on the specs alone Can we? The vehicles we've seen are concepts. We know nothing of the build quality, reliability, safety, or a multitude of other characteristics of a mass-production version of these vehicles. A hand-built concept vehicle built in extremely low volumes for press outings (what they have now) would be expected to be impressive, but the real test is whether all of those wonder…

> Can we? Absolutely! The norm in a lot of industries is to judge on projected figures (electronics, CPU, GPU, automotive, aerospace, mining, etc). > We know nothing of the build quality, reliability, safety, or a multitude of other characteristics of a mass-production version of these vehicles. "Superb" is subjective - I could say a 1965 Porsche 911 is a superb car, even though it compares terribly with a 2018 Toyot…

The norm in the industries you quoted is certainly not to judge the quality of the product before it exists. I don't recall Anantech or GamePro (RIP) or Motor Trend ever reviewing a product based on conceptual specs and concluding something like "Yep, excellent work, says it has a powerful V8 and a 6-speed but gets 60mpg- awesome, we're done here boys!". If we could just compare vehicle spec sheets, there would be no need for automotive journalists to drive the cars or do long-term reliability surveys. We'll see how it goes for Rivian, but to say "Rivian makes superb trucks" when they haven't made a single street-legal vehicle yet is a hell of a jump.

Re: your Porsche comment, I'm not sure what you're getting at. You could indeed say a 1965 Porsche 911 is a superb car, because 1. it actually exists in production form and 2. the public (and automotive journalists) have had the chance to drive and judge it for themselves. Not so for Rivian, which again, has yet to produce anything but concept cars. If you're comparing a 1965 911 against a 2018 Corolla, you're just being silly. Vehicles are compared to other vehicles in the time in which they were introduced. No reasonable person is judging a 1965 vehicle by 2018 standards.

Anyways, I'm looking forward to seeing what the production version of these trucks look like. It sounds like they've got some heavy hitter investors on board so hopefully that translates into a solid final product that delivers on the claims they've made.

Re: Amazon, GM in talks to invest in electric pickup truck maker Rivian: sources

#97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not saying there isn't a market for electric trucks, I'm just saying that few people are in the market for an electric pickup truck in the $100k+ price range for off-roading. Judging by the specs on these things, I'd honestly be surprised if they could produce these for less than $125k.

Apparently the target starting price (for baseline) is at the mid-80k range for the large battery model and closer to 60k for the medium and small battery models: https://www.motortrend.com/news/2020-rivian-r1t-ev-first-loo... That might very well be ambitious, though, and even if they do meet those targets, that's still considerably more expensive than a Tacoma.

I would really be surprised if they could meet that price point without making serious compromises in other areas. The battery pack cost alone is going to be a large percentage of total cost.

Re: Amazon, GM in talks to invest in electric pickup truck maker Rivian: sources

#98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would use the shit out of this thing as a pickup truck. It meets all my needs for something I can drive to a trailhead fully loaded with other hikers.

And it meets all of my needs hauling stuff around on less-than-ideal road conditions (or no road at all). It's expensive and fancy-looking, but it still looks to be quite usable. My issues with it boil down more to the exclusively-touchscreen interface (it's the exact opposite of what I want to use while driving) and the high pricetag compared to, say, a Tacoma.

Price is really the sticking point as far as I can tell. They're pricing a little over 2x what most people spend on trucks and I wouldn't at all be surprised if that price went up another 50% before it's actually for sale.

It's going to be limited audience at first, unless batteries come down in price significantly. So I can understand all the design decisions to appeal to a high end market but ... idk.

I definitely agree with you about the touch interfaces. The Model 3 needs more buttons.

Re: Amazon, GM in talks to invest in electric pickup truck maker Rivian: sources

#99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Delivering thousands of vehicles per week could be where GM's experience becomes helpful.

Is GM getting involved or just investing?

Some analysts believe they will help on the production side too since they don't have an EV Pickup in the next 3 years of road map. Each side might learn something from sharing their expertise. Apparently Amazon is interested from a delivery vehicle standpoint. It's probably not that useful as a pickup truck, but it could be a good platform to build a proper delivery vehicle on.
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