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Proposed Jail Time for Tech Companies Who Steal Data

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Re: Proposed Jail Time for Tech Companies Who Steal Data

#181

Post by bryan_w »

bsder wrote: post #171
smsm42 wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's called "politician's fallacy" - "something needs to be done! This is something, therefore this needs to be done!". Obvious comment on it is that "something" must improve the situation after being done, merely doing something that doesn't work because current situation doesn't work is not likely to make it work. And if you're implying I have to right to criticize stupid proposals from politicians before I mysel…

> That's called "politician's fallacy" - "something needs to be done! This is something, therefore this needs to be done!". You are arguing that doing nothing is superior to this proposal. While you may be correct, that train has left the station and is no longer on the table. Both the public and the politicians are in agreement on this, so, good luck changing that narrative. > And if you're implying I have to right…

Don't mistake motion for progress

Re: Proposed Jail Time for Tech Companies Who Steal Data

#182

Post by Dylan16807 »

simplecomplex wrote: post #179
Dylan16807 wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The claim wasn't that they opened a TCP connection to the partners and forced private data over the line. The claim was that they gave away access to partners that didn't need it, or even know about it. "These partnerships were agreed via extensive negotiations and documentation, detailing how the third party would use the API, and what data they could and couldn’t access." That's not how you treat people's private d…

The linked Facebook article includes a screenshot of the feature in Spotify allowing people to send and receive Facebook messages. "In order for you to write a message to a Facebook friend from within Spotify, for instance, we needed to give Spotify “write access.” For you to be able to read messages back, we needed Spotify to have “read access.” “Delete access” meant that if you deleted a message from within Spotify…

Spotify still has a feature to share music through facebook, and that current feature doesn't require the ability to read messages. So that screenshot that only shows a "send recommendation" feature doesn't prove anything at all. No non-recommendation text is displayed on that screenshot.

Both Spotify and Netflix claim they only used access to send messages, and were unaware of broader powers. Netflix: “At no time did we access people’s private messages on Facebook, or ask for the ability to do so” Spotify: “Spotify’s integration with Facebook has always been about sharing and discovering music and podcasts. Spotify cannot read users’ private Facebook inbox messages across any of our current integrations. Previously, when users shared music from Spotify, they could add on text that was visible to Spotify. This has since been discontinued. We have no evidence that Spotify ever accessed users’ private Facebook messages.”

Note that even in the facebook statement, they don't say that the companies couldn't have accessed unrelated data. They claim that the permissions were appropriate (which they did not justify) and that none of the companies did access unrelated data.

I don't have an axe to grind, I'm pointing out that the spotify and netflix statements are pretty condemning and in a contradiction between them and facebook I trust the company saying "we did nothing wrong" less.

And nobody's voting on these posts...

Re: Proposed Jail Time for Tech Companies Who Steal Data

#183

Post by tomhoward »

Apocryphon wrote: post #180
tomhoward wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've just re-asked the very question my parent commenter should have addressed if they were going to dismiss my first comment, avoided addressing it yourself, then repeated the "nonsense" dismissal with the addition of an emphatic word. People who are committed to logical argumentation – and I've seen this point made often on HN – will say that the reduction in the quantity and formidability of new startups is an a…

The study is examining the amount of venture funding received in countries affected by GDPR, which seems unrelated to your statement “startups that never get off the ground because the cost of compliance is prohibitive”. Investors backing off because of perceived costs of compliance do not necessarily mean compliance is all that much expensive. Furthermore, it would appear that the study is incomplete. > Wagman and Z…

Here's a thought experiment for you: if it were shown that the costs and risks associated with GDPR - in its current form - were high enough to meaningfully reduce the number of startups starting and achieving success, would you still support it, as it currently exists?

Re: Proposed Jail Time for Tech Companies Who Steal Data

#184

Post by Apocryphon »

tomhoward wrote: post #183
Apocryphon wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The study is examining the amount of venture funding received in countries affected by GDPR, which seems unrelated to your statement “startups that never get off the ground because the cost of compliance is prohibitive”. Investors backing off because of perceived costs of compliance do not necessarily mean compliance is all that much expensive. Furthermore, it would appear that the study is incomplete. > Wagman and Z…

Here's a thought experiment for you: if it were shown that the costs and risks associated with GDPR - in its current form - were high enough to meaningfully reduce the number of startups starting and achieving success, would you still support it, as it currently exists?

As it currently exists, of course not. But as with any regulation or policy, it can be modified as befitting local conditions and times. Certainly it need not be a carbon copy of the European legislation. The devil’s in the details, after all.

Re: Proposed Jail Time for Tech Companies Who Steal Data

#186

Post by mimixco »

anonymousab wrote: post #13
mimixco wrote: post #4

Quit expecting governments to save you. The easiest fix for this problem is to stop using these products! No matter how much bad news comes out about Facebook, Apple, Google, and Amazon using your data in bad ways -- people still keep using them. If enough people quit, this will stop or a competitor will rise up who doesn't do this stuff.

Governments are one lever through which society enacts changes upon itself. They are made up of the people themselves, after all. It's no less valid than other ways for people to collectively pool influence to enact change (i.e. boycotts or forming other types of organizations).

Governments are not made up of people; they're made of politicians. The most powerful dynamic in the marketplace is purchasing power. If you don't like something, quit using it and the company will eventually fold (most likely) or morph into something people want (far less likely).

Re: Proposed Jail Time for Tech Companies Who Steal Data

#187

Post by mimixco »

mnm1 wrote: post #20
mimixco wrote: post #4

Quit expecting governments to save you. The easiest fix for this problem is to stop using these products! No matter how much bad news comes out about Facebook, Apple, Google, and Amazon using your data in bad ways -- people still keep using them. If enough people quit, this will stop or a competitor will rise up who doesn't do this stuff.

Nonsense. Can you provide a way I can get Equifax and similar companies to stop stealing and selling my data? I've been trying to do that for decades. No. Your argument is bullshit. I didn't sign up for this shit and neither did anyone else, yet we still got fucked. How do you propose we fix it now? The cellular companies are still selling my data. Should I not own a cell phone because I can't get a cell plan that wo…

You can get out of the credit game. You can use a cell phone without a Google account, or buy one of the new open source ones coming to market.

No one needs a social network like FB. Just stop using it and they will go away.

Re: Proposed Jail Time for Tech Companies Who Steal Data

#188

Post by mimixco »

crooked-v wrote: post #7
mimixco wrote: post #4

Quit expecting governments to save you. The easiest fix for this problem is to stop using these products! No matter how much bad news comes out about Facebook, Apple, Google, and Amazon using your data in bad ways -- people still keep using them. If enough people quit, this will stop or a competitor will rise up who doesn't do this stuff.

"Let the invisible hand of the market fix it" is not something that has a history of actually working on near-monopoly actors.

Monopolies have to be propped-up by governments. No monopoly can survive in a truly free market. Never has; never will.

Power companies, cable companies, and telco operators are all monopolies propped up by government. An actually free market will always eliminate them when some competitor rises up with a lower cost, a better product, or better service.

There has never in history been a monopoly company that could operate in a free market without government support.

Re: Proposed Jail Time for Tech Companies Who Steal Data

#189

Post by mimixco »

sonnyblarney wrote: post #47
mimixco wrote: post #4

Quit expecting governments to save you. The easiest fix for this problem is to stop using these products! No matter how much bad news comes out about Facebook, Apple, Google, and Amazon using your data in bad ways -- people still keep using them. If enough people quit, this will stop or a competitor will rise up who doesn't do this stuff.

"Quit expecting governments to save you. The easiest fix for this problem is to stop using these products! " No, this is why we have regulations for cars, food, and everything else. Free markets don't work well in most of these areas because information can't flow properly. If it did, markets might work quite well. But they don't, and players cheat, so we need regulations.

It might surprise you to learn that governments actually support monopolies and encourage them. A monopoly cannot exist in a true free market and has never done so in history.

Re: Proposed Jail Time for Tech Companies Who Steal Data

#190

Post by dtagames »

xorgar831 wrote: post #36
mimixco wrote: post #4

Quit expecting governments to save you. The easiest fix for this problem is to stop using these products! No matter how much bad news comes out about Facebook, Apple, Google, and Amazon using your data in bad ways -- people still keep using them. If enough people quit, this will stop or a competitor will rise up who doesn't do this stuff.

Or if we all get together and decide a company shouldn't behave in a certain way, that's another option. We call that government regulation when we everyone gets together to do that. You can think of it as voting with your money, just without the money part.

Governments have never consisted of "everyone getting together." That's a myth that smacks of socialism. The best way to get the products and services you want (and wipe out the ones you don't) is to vote with your pocketbook.

With Facebook and other "free" services, you are the product -- not the customer. Stopping this is very simple; just don't agree to be the product anymore.

No one needs a social network. There isn't one compelling reason for anyone to join one unless you are a shareholder. You don't need the government to protect you from social networks or fix their ills. You need to delete your account and take personal responsibility for your complicity.

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