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Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

nytimes.com

391–400 of 1001 posts

Re: Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

#391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All new employees would've paid income and sales taxes.

At least one of the following would have to be true for that to follow: new people would have to move to NYC specifically for Amazon (or to fill vacancies created by people leaving other companies to work at Amazon), or otherwise-unemployed people would have to become employed because of Amazon, or the people taking Amazon jobs would have to be paid more than they otherwise would. None of these would be guaranteed, t…

How much increase in tax revenues will NYC get now that they’ve scared off their expansion? NYC is not responsible for Amazon’s success and is not entitled to a share in their revenue via taxes.

Claiming that they are simply because they want to expand and hire into their market does not result in successful outcomes for either party.

Re: Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

#392
post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

agreed. the drive to squash this deal was mainly driven from local politicians who were whining that they were cut out of the process.

As an NYC resident I'm glad my elected officials are "butt hurt" at not being involved in a political process that would affect the city in a large way. If they weren't "butt hurt" they really shouldn't be in their jobs.

NYC by virtue of political clout gets to meddle in all sorts of issues that affect upstate and warp them for it's own benefit. This time the state cut a deal that NYC wasn't in on and NYC didn't like it but at the end of the day it's still getting what it wants.

Having self government on a local level but then getting constantly steamrolled by a state government that is dominated by some other city really sucks. NYC (and Boston, and Chicago, and a whole load of other cities that dominate their state government) should try it sometime.

On one hand I'm annoyed that an opportunity for part of NYC to feel what that's like was missed by this > On the other hand the deal that NYS cut with Amazon was a boondoggle load of crap that set a terrible precedent so I'm glad it's not happening.

Re: Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

#393
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if the city gets back much more in tax revenue?

No, because then it's a race to the bottom and all other companies start expecting these same deals (or even better), and eventually you do end up with a situation where the city does not get back more in tax revenue. It's simple negotiation; you may lose some money on that one deal, but you'll gain more in the end by not decreasing the value of all subsequent deals.

^ For anyone doubting this, Planet Money did an excellent podcast on how this phenomenon played out in Kansas City with corporations like Applebee's, and cost the city millions:

https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2018/11/16/668769284/epis...

Re: Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

#395

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...there is nothing personal or acidic in this post?

You don't think > feel free to pat yourself on the back for not "falling for it" is condescending? Because to me it sounds super condescending, flippant, and dismissive.

It's about as mildly condescending as anything can be. I'm all for civil discourse, but there comes a point where we're just sanitizing it.

Re: Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

#396
post #238

Of all the places, why did NYC offer Amazon subsidies? NYC actually has too many good jobs for the amount of space... I am also proud of my cantankerous fellow New Yorkers who fought this.

I think NYC (or SF or any high cost of living area) is a crazy place to put HQ2. In terms of subsidies, while it's easy to dunk on Amazon, and no business should be getting subsidies IMO, there is a real issue here: Cost of Living in NY is higher and Amazon will have to pay higher wages if it puts jobs there rather than a place like Nashville. That's higher wages for the same job. Pretty much every company has a cost…

There's a reason you get superstar hubs, instead of companies and employees equalizing to somewhere else as soon as one metro gets a bit more expensive. Network/ecosystem effects are a real thing.

Google already has some dev offices in cheaper areas, like Pittsburgh, where office space is cheaper and the salaries they pay slightly lower. And yet, they still choose to double their headcount in NYC.

Just saying, "well I guess Google is just being irrational for no reason" would be simplistic, childish thinking. Google doesn't choose sites or increase headcount on a whim. They're going to do it because there are real advantages to the major tech hubs.

Educated guess, as someone who works at Google now and used to work at Amazon: it's easier to attract people to major tech hubs, because they offer more career stability in the form of having lots of other tech companies around. Being in Kansas City making a Google salary might sound great, until you realize that if you lost that job for some reason, there's nothing around in the same tier.

Also, the kind of person who wants to live in a cheaper city, with a big house for their family, is also the kind of person who's going to be reluctant to move from wherever they currently live anyway. That demographic is going to be hard to convince.

Re: Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

#397
post #377
post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here from the Wikipedia backgrounder: >In response, Citizens United produced the documentary Celsius 41.11, which is highly critical of both Fahrenheit 9/11 and 2004 Democratic presidential nominee John Kerry. The FEC, however, held that showing the movie and advertisements for it would violate the Federal Election Campaign Act, because Citizens United was not a bona fide commercial film maker.

Disallowing a film being shown 60 days before an election because the person is not a bona fide film maker is very much different than disallowing a film 60 before an election because the person is not a bona fide commercial film maker. The word commercial is important. Citizen's United was not a commercial enterprise. No one disputes this. No one thinks their film wasn't done by a bona fide film maker.

It would seem that unnecessary distinction has severe first amendment rights implications.

Re: Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

#398
Amazon is making the right decision to pull out. Given the political opposition, flip-flopping from politicians who previously supported the deal, and activist fervor, there is just too much risk in committing to NY and NYC. The losers will be residents of NY and NYC. This would have been a huge win for them, with massive job creation and tax revenue increases well in excess of what it costs. That revenue could have helped improve services across the city.

Note that Amazon did not provide projections on economic impact or tax revenues or other aspects here. The city and state made those promises, based on economic analyses they commissioned (and likely used in their negotiations). It includes things like taxes from the additional jobs and businesses that will be created outside of Amazon.

All but $505m of the ~$3b in subsidies here would have come from programs that already existed in NY State and NYC (Excelsior, ICAP, and REAP). Would you give up $3b over 10 years (and just $505m above programs that are broadly available) to attract business that will provide an incremental $28B in new tax revenue and $186B in GSP over 25 years? That is a _tremendous_ ROI, the kind that typically does not exist in the market, and a $505m capital grant (the primary Amazon-specific concession) was a small price to secure it. The 9:1 return they projected on this deal was the best such program NY State and NYC would have ever run, and possibly the best such deal ever across the country. To put it into context, the Film Tax Credit program had a 1.15:1 ROI.

We can argue all day about whether the HQ2 search was a bluff or sham or whatever, but there is no reasonable claim to certainty here - and hence negotiation enters the picture to turn something uncertain (Amazon MAY come to NYC) into certain (Amazon WILL come to NYC).

Here are the quotes from the original HQ2 press release on the economic benefits:

> The construction is expected to create an average of 1300 direct construction jobs annually through 2033. Overall, the project is estimated to create more than 107,000 total direct and indirect jobs, over $14 billion in new tax revenue for the State and a net of $13.5 billion in City tax revenue over the next 25 years. The project provides a 9:1 return on investment.

> According to an economic impact study by REMI, Inc., a world leader in dynamic forecasting and policy analysis, the Amazon project will generate over $186 billion in Gross State Product for the New York State economy over the initial 25 years. REMI also projects over $14 billion in total new tax revenue for the State (in 2019 dollars), with annual revenues growing from $10.8 million in 2019 to nearly $1 billion in 2043. The City forecasts $13.5 billion in total new tax revenue.

https://www.governor.ny.gov/news/governor-cuomo-and-mayor-de...

The ROI here is well beyond any other conceivable option. It is so large that even if projections of a 9:1 ROI are way off, it would be a big win. Also, most of the subsidy to Amazon is not an up-front lump sum. Rather, most of it takes the form of credits for prior actions. For example, they would get tax credits for job creation in the prior year incrementally, based on what they actually delivered.

Taking all this into account, this would have been a super safe path to greater tax revenues, which would have improved the city/state as a whole. I hope as a next step Amazon considers cities in other parts of the country, away from blue coastal cities. Economic revitalization across a broader slice of the political/ideological/cultural spectrum can only be a good thing.

Re: Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

#399
post #70

After being a resident of NYC for 30 years and seeing the city change and become a technology hub and just a financial center I think this is a real loss for NYC. It would also be in Long island City which would provide a huge influx of new workers and move that neighborhood forward in development rapidly. The down side would be that it would push some residents and business owners out but this is simply a fact of li…

If you're talking about the 2nd Ave stub, yeah, it was crazy expensive but it's serving 200K passengers a day, alleviating crowding on the Lex (entire Lex is like 1.3m), and UES to Times Square is hella faster.

Anyway, for me it hinges on how much special treatment Amazon got, $100K in tax abatements per job seems excessive, but others say it was pretty standard, would have been a huge anchor tenant for NYC tech and LIC, so much smoke blown on both sides it's hard to say ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ .

If they want to sell and support AWS to bigcos in NYC they are going to need a major presence regardless, not sure how much sense it makes for their other businesses to have a big HQ in NYC.

Re: Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

#400
post #55

If Amazon had just quietly announced plans to expand to LIC without the "HQ2 Search" dog and pony show they almost certainly would still be here. Google buys entire city blocks and nobody bats an eye. Turns out that publicly shaking down cities across the US tends to draw out the opposition. More publicity = more scrutiny = more angry opponents of your business decision

Amazon's spectacle reminds me of Lebron's "The Decision". It's one thing to work out the details and make an announcement, but to purposefully turn it into a show about "What can you do for me?" instead of "Here's what I can do for you" made it not sit well with people. Also, the pull-out letter also basically dumps the blame on state/local officials for not wanting Amazon, despite not all stakeholders being present…

LeBron's Decision 1 was a lot of money for him. He had the talent to back that up.
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