Two or more diet beverages a day linked to high risk of stroke, heart attacks • Hacker News Board

Re: Two or more diet beverages a day linked to high risk of stroke, heart attacks

#41

Post by close04 » Thu, Feb 14, 2019, 2:27 PM UTC

deegles wrote: post #31

lolc wrote: post #11

I wonder whether even if there is a causal link, the diet version will still be healthier (for low values of healthy) than the sugary version. I tend to think so. I would assume the people most likely to drink diet beverages do so to wean themselves off of sugary drinks. That's one of the first steps in getting towards a healthier lifestyle. The article notes this too. A mystery to me is why they haven't asked about…

I had a coworker who insisted diet sodas were worse for you than regular sodas. I just don't understand how people reach that kind of conclusion.

I guess it's because other scientists and studies say low-calorie sweeteners can lead to weight gain or increase the risk of developing type 2 diabetes, and in lab experiments aspartame exposure lead to increased lymphoma and leukemia. It's not that obvious which study is right and which maybe had a flawed methodology, or which is the result of correlation rather than causation.

A random example that does not definitively settle anything but is enough to make you keep asking the question [0].

And one common sense argument is that many people consume way more diet sodas than they would regular ones. Since they have no sugar and almost no calories the assumption is that there is no danger to consume more of them, they are "healthy". Since artificial sweeteners have their own sets of risks in mechanisms that are perhaps even less understood, suddenly this assumption is that more dangerous. It could be jumping from the frying pan into the fire.

[0] https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1038/oby.2008.28...

Re: Two or more diet beverages a day linked to high risk of stroke, heart attacks

#42

Post by mattkrause » Thu, Feb 14, 2019, 2:28 PM UTC

Waterluvian wrote: post #6

"...16% more likely to die from any cause than women who drank diet beverages less than once a week or not at all." Doesn't this suggest that they actually failed to control for lifestyle effects?

All-cause mortality is a pretty common way to look at “side-effects”, especially when it is not clear exactly what they might be.

These do need to be interpreted carefully though, lest you end up concluding that a drug increases your odds of getting into a car crash or something. There could be a causal link—maybe the drug causes drowsiness or affects vision—but it could also be noise....5% of the time happens 5% of the time, after all!

Re: Two or more diet beverages a day linked to high risk of stroke, heart attacks

#43

Post by JoeAltmaier » Thu, Feb 14, 2019, 2:29 PM UTC

close04 wrote: post #41

deegles wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a coworker who insisted diet sodas were worse for you than regular sodas. I just don't understand how people reach that kind of conclusion.

I guess it's because other scientists and studies say low-calorie sweeteners can lead to weight gain or increase the risk of developing type 2 diabetes, and in lab experiments aspartame exposure lead to increased lymphoma and leukemia. It's not that obvious which study is right and which maybe had a flawed methodology, or which is the result of correlation rather than causation. A random example that does not definit…

Right! Good point! The study should not be per-person risk, but per-bottle risk to answer that question. How much more does one can of diet Pepsi put your health at risk than the regular kind? Its the question we must answer when faced with the soda cooler at the gas station. But the study gives a different, not-very-actionable per-average-person-lifetime answer.

Re: Two or more diet beverages a day linked to high risk of stroke, heart attacks

#44

Post by dilap » Thu, Feb 14, 2019, 2:36 PM UTC

I dunno, 1.23 increase in risk is tiny; seems likely that it's just lifestyle stuff (which you can try to control for a bit, but you can't know every single choice a diet soda drinker is making -- quite likely an overall less healthy lifestyle).

Compare this to e.g. 20x lung cancer incidence for smokers, where even w/ observational data, you can be pretty sure there's a causal relationship.

Maybe do some RCTs giving diet soda to animals or something and see what happens. And look into the chemistry to see what the mechanism might be...

(That said, probably prudent not to go too crazy with diet soda, or any other novel ingredients.)

Re: Two or more diet beverages a day linked to high risk of stroke, heart attacks

#45

Post by Matticus_Rex » Thu, Feb 14, 2019, 2:36 PM UTC

swah wrote: post #34

zzzcpan wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A mystery to me is why they haven't asked about consumption of sugary drinks at the same time. Obviously because sugary drinks manufacturers are paying for the article and the "study".

But Coke sells Coke, Diet Coke, juices and bottled water. What difference does it make to them?

They're more dominant in cola than they are in orange juice.

Re: Two or more diet beverages a day linked to high risk of stroke, heart attacks

#46

Post by yoz-y » Thu, Feb 14, 2019, 2:39 PM UTC

lolc wrote: post #11

I wonder whether even if there is a causal link, the diet version will still be healthier (for low values of healthy) than the sugary version. I tend to think so. I would assume the people most likely to drink diet beverages do so to wean themselves off of sugary drinks. That's one of the first steps in getting towards a healthier lifestyle. The article notes this too. A mystery to me is why they haven't asked about…

> A mystery to me is why they haven't asked about consumption of sugary drinks at the same time. That would have allowed to get much more interesting correlations.

I suppose because there already is a consensus that sugary drinks are bad for people and cause all the mentioned problems. Now the eye turns on the sugarless ones. However a comparison would be indeed welcome.

Re: Two or more diet beverages a day linked to high risk of stroke, heart attacks

#47

Post by magduf » Thu, Feb 14, 2019, 2:39 PM UTC

close04 wrote: post #41

deegles wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a coworker who insisted diet sodas were worse for you than regular sodas. I just don't understand how people reach that kind of conclusion.

I guess it's because other scientists and studies say low-calorie sweeteners can lead to weight gain or increase the risk of developing type 2 diabetes, and in lab experiments aspartame exposure lead to increased lymphoma and leukemia. It's not that obvious which study is right and which maybe had a flawed methodology, or which is the result of correlation rather than causation. A random example that does not definit…

And on top of that, it's not like you need to drink some kind of soda, and have to worry about whether sugar, HFCS, or artificial sweeteners are worse. You can avoid the problem altogether by simply not drinking soda!

Re: Two or more diet beverages a day linked to high risk of stroke, heart attacks

#48

Post by Reason077 » Thu, Feb 14, 2019, 2:39 PM UTC

jillesvangurp wrote: post #21

I concluded a some time ago that soda drinks weren't adding a lot of value for me at all. And I heard some people claim that the artificial sugars actually are not that great for you. 1) they teach your body that sweet stuff has no nutrition, which then becomes a problem when you actually eat sweet stuff 2) sweeteners like aspartame build up in your liver and fat deposits, which may or may not have long term impact.…

In the UK, most carbonated beverages now contain a blend of sugar and artificial sweeteners, in order to stay under the 5g per 100ml threshold for the "sugar tax".

Coca-cola "classic"/"original taste" is still available with only sugar, but typically at a higher price than other options.

Re: Two or more diet beverages a day linked to high risk of stroke, heart attacks

#49

Post by vorpalhex » Thu, Feb 14, 2019, 2:39 PM UTC

zzzcpan wrote: post #26

bluedino wrote: post #15

I’ve never seen a skinny person regularly drink Diet Coke/Pepsi Diet carbonated drinks just make me gassy. I’d rather have the sugar from a regular Coke and just not drink one every day, or multiple ones per day. I have co-workers that drink 6-8 per day. I find the “tiny” cans which are only 7.5 are about the perfect size. 3-4 drinks, only 80 cslories, a small bump of sugar...if I drink a 20oz bottle I usually can’t…

> I’d rather have the sugar from a regular Coke I guess this is what the article tries to achieve. Just PR to steer you to more unhealthy consumption. Safe choice here was always to simply avoid sweet beverages altogether, and not just Coke, all the juices too.

There's nothing wrong with having something sweet.. occasionally.

I made this mistake for a long time, trying to fudge my diet with faux-healthy snacks that were still basically just packaged fake sugar.

If you want a bit of chocolate, have a bit of chocolate. If you want a soda, have a bit of soda (the small cans are about the right size it seems). Just don't have 8 sodas a day, or eat an entire cake to yourself. Calorie count. Make sure most of your diet consists of things other than empty carbs. Eat your veggies, etc.

Re: Two or more diet beverages a day linked to high risk of stroke, heart attacks

#50

Post by close04 » Thu, Feb 14, 2019, 2:41 PM UTC

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #43

close04 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess it's because other scientists and studies say low-calorie sweeteners can lead to weight gain or increase the risk of developing type 2 diabetes, and in lab experiments aspartame exposure lead to increased lymphoma and leukemia. It's not that obvious which study is right and which maybe had a flawed methodology, or which is the result of correlation rather than causation. A random example that does not definit…

Right! Good point! The study should not be per-person risk, but per-bottle risk to answer that question. How much more does one can of diet Pepsi put your health at risk than the regular kind? Its the question we must answer when faced with the soda cooler at the gas station. But the study gives a different, not-very-actionable per-average-person-lifetime answer.

No study at this time has quantified the risk of sugary vs. diet sodas. They just point out that each one increases the risk of specific medical problems but with no certain indication of which one is worse or by how much. And even deciding what worse means is a big deal. They can simply kill you or decrease your quality of life in different ways. Doesn't make one better.

It's the same recently with cigarettes and e-cigs. Determining smoking or drinking coke is bad compared to not doing it is relatively straight forward. Determining what's better out of 2 alternatives that just harm you in different ways and that weren't studied enough is harder.

If you want to play it safe go for none of them.