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Silicon Valley Is Using Trade Secrets to Hide Its Race Problem

bloomberg.com

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Re: Silicon Valley Is Using Trade Secrets to Hide Its Race Problem

#81
post #7

More like journalism is using race to hide its jealousy problem. Tech now has the power, influence, and compensation that journalist used to have, and they're mad about it. Most of these companies go way out of their way to recruit minorities and women. If you believe that not having enough of them in tech companies is a problem, you're going to have to look further down the funnel, to college major choices and hones…

You've italicised "pipeline" as if you believe this is a novel insight, but actually it's very common to dismiss diversity and inclusion efforts by redirecting attention to "the pipeline problem". Unfortunately there is evidence that the pipeline is far from the only problem, and even after successful interventions to swell the pool of qualified diverse candidates, companies' representation is still extremely skewed,…

> You've italicised "pipeline" as if you believe this is a novel insight, but actually it's very common to dismiss diversity and inclusion efforts by redirecting attention to "the pipeline problem".

I'm not dismissing diversity and inclusion efforts. They're being made, and i'm glad they're being made.

> Here's one thread from an organisation that spent 10 years working on the pipeline and found many companies wouldn't hire their candidates: https://twitter.com/Code2040/status/1092853501766467585?s=19

> (Edit: gah, pasted the same link twice instead of the Twitter thread I meant to post)

> And some more links on the "pipeline problem": http://isitapipelineproblem.com

I'm certainly open to arguments of this form, though the links you've pasted here aren't very convincing to me. The Code2040 people say the companies said their candidates weren't qualified. I see no attempt at rebutting that (by e.g. trying to objectively measure 'qualifiedness' and then showing that these companies were preferring equally qualified white candidates).

Similarly, for the attrition rates for women, I think that very same data can be used to show a preference difference rather than an inclusion problem. If you wanted to make the case that it was an inclusion problem, you'd have to believe that fields like medicine and law, which women have become quite well represented in, were substantially less male-biased than tech. If you drill down in medicine though, you'll see that women sort themselves into sub-specialties that deal with human contact, where men sort themselves into sub-specialties that do not, on average. Again, pointing to a fundamental preferential difference.

In my own personal experience, i've known a few women who are excellent CS students and programmers. They had no shortage of capability relative to the men I knew. However, without exception, every single one of them aspired to be a project manager of some kind, rather than an actual engineer. They were more than capable of doing the engineering, and they did do it. However, their end goal was managing people and process. Most of the men I know who are engineers, hope to be writing code until they die. This is anecdotal of course, but it's an experience I see echoed a lot.

Re: Silicon Valley Is Using Trade Secrets to Hide Its Race Problem

#82
post #8

For the millionth time. The distribution of populations not lining up with the general population distributions is not indicative of discrimination. Not to mention that the "anti-brown people" narrative absolutely dissolves in the face of the massive overrepresentation of Indians and other Asians. To say that Silicon Valley has a "race problem" and only include the employment statistics as they relate to the populati…

To me the issue is not discrimination but rather representation. I will give you a concrete example. Our team (working in medicine) had very few Latinos for a long time. As a result of this we completely avoided gathering training data from Latin America because no one was well versed in how to conduct business there, yet we had data/deals with US, Europe and Asia. As a result our algorithms will likely not help Lati…

Our team (working in medicine) had very few Latinos for a long time. As a result of this we completely avoided gathering training data from Latin America because no one was well versed in how to conduct business there

Isn't that more diversity of experience versus diversity of racial makeup?

You could have a white guy who grew up in Latin America provide you with the insights. A Latino who grew up in the US might have absolutely nothing to contribute.

Re: Silicon Valley Is Using Trade Secrets to Hide Its Race Problem

#83
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I once went on an interview to Uber in Palo Alto. At lunchtime, when we went to the cafeteria, I saw most of the 200+ workers were either Chinese or Indian, sitting in their prospective table. Same with LinkedIn and workday in Santa Clara. I don’t see any racisms in Silicon Valley

If most were either Chinese or Indian, then they were greatly over-represented compared to US demographics. If you replace Chinese with white, it'd be taken as a sign of racism and privilege. So why isn't it racism in this case?

I remember a while ago there was an article about a company that openly promotes women and discriminates against males. The article was in a positive light. It seems that only whites are guilty of racism and and only males are guilty of gender discrimination.

Re: Silicon Valley Is Using Trade Secrets to Hide Its Race Problem

#84
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you saying the top X% is racially skewed? Because all things being equal, if the only difference between the two groups is color of their skin, I'd say that was a textbook definition of racial bias.

All things are not equal. Black Americans as a group are poorer than other racial groups save perhaps native Americans, and have worse educational outcomes on average. Is this the result of institutional racism? I’d say so, but it also can be a cause or underrepresentation in higher skilled employment, even if the employers are not biased in their selection processes.

This also plays a role. It would be important to note that the Bay Area also has a very different dynamic than let's say the south or the easy coast where there is also a much longer history of middle and upper middle class black families.

For example DC has a huge college educated black population because the government was one of the few places you could get a well paying as a black person with less discrimination. So lots of people decided to settle there. Atlanta has a lot of historically black colleges - creating a pool of educated workers.

In CA, most of the black population came over as blue collar workers in the military, shipyards, and manufacturing. Whereas most of the Asian population is made up of professional worker or affluent educated immigrants.

Yes I am generalizing here. We don't do a good job of carving out the differences for Asian groups. East Asians tend to be super educated, southeast asians tend to not be, and the outcomes are also widely different.

Re: Silicon Valley Is Using Trade Secrets to Hide Its Race Problem

#85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And corporate diversity goals are based on the pipeline, not the general population. Lots of folks in this conversation seem to be making utterly incorrect assumptions about programs that they seem to have deep contempt for. Unsurprising.

Well, right. Corporations internally work towards their diversity goals, which are sensibly based on the pipeline and aim to eliminate bias in hiring. That's why they don't want to publicize their numbers; they know people like the Bloomberg reporter who wrote this article will incorrectly try to measure their efforts against the total number of minorities in the US.

The hiring pipeline is discussed explicitly in the article, and comparison to national demographics is legitimate.

Re: Silicon Valley Is Using Trade Secrets to Hide Its Race Problem

#86

Since this has become yet another discussion about "the pipeline problem" instead of a discussion about a tactic major tech companies are using to duck accountability, this Twitter thread might be informative: https://twitter.com/Code2040/status/1092853501766467585?s=19 It's from an organisation (Code2040) that spent 10 years working to build a pipeline of qualified Black and Latinx candidates, only to find many comp…

It's a series of opinions in tweets. no facts. no scientific anything.

From a person who (after looking at their LinkedIn bio) is in no way qualified to tell companies what they need _at all_

From what I see of the company & CEO, it's a self serving & self preserving job role & company.

Re: Silicon Valley Is Using Trade Secrets to Hide Its Race Problem

#87
post #10
post #7

More like journalism is using race to hide its jealousy problem. Tech now has the power, influence, and compensation that journalist used to have, and they're mad about it. Most of these companies go way out of their way to recruit minorities and women. If you believe that not having enough of them in tech companies is a problem, you're going to have to look further down the funnel, to college major choices and hones…

Would you be willing to share your ideas on what can be done at the beginning of the pipeline?

Sure, instill discipline in schools. Go to a school of 'underrepresented minorities' and you'll see an incredible amount of misbehavior. Anyone who struggles to listen and not gratify their most immediate desires will probably fail to develop technical skills.

Also, immediate suspension for kids who bully academically-inclined students for 'acting white'. Not only is it a racially charged statement that probably has no place in school (or so progs would tell us), but it seems levied exclusively against the kids who need education the most.

Re: Silicon Valley Is Using Trade Secrets to Hide Its Race Problem

#88
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me the issue is not discrimination but rather representation. I will give you a concrete example. Our team (working in medicine) had very few Latinos for a long time. As a result of this we completely avoided gathering training data from Latin America because no one was well versed in how to conduct business there, yet we had data/deals with US, Europe and Asia. As a result our algorithms will likely not help Lati…

Our team (working in medicine) had very few Latinos for a long time. As a result of this we completely avoided gathering training data from Latin America because no one was well versed in how to conduct business there Isn't that more diversity of experience versus diversity of racial makeup? You could have a white guy who grew up in Latin America provide you with the insights. A Latino who grew up in the US might hav…

The point is that without diversity, even awareness of these problems can be missing. Obviously once you understand what the skill/experience gap is, you can go out and try to fill it. But a team lacking in diversity will also end up with these sorts of blind spots. Latin Americans can (and did :) ) notice this gap and now it is beginning to be filled.

Re: Silicon Valley Is Using Trade Secrets to Hide Its Race Problem

#89
post #8

For the millionth time. The distribution of populations not lining up with the general population distributions is not indicative of discrimination. Not to mention that the "anti-brown people" narrative absolutely dissolves in the face of the massive overrepresentation of Indians and other Asians. To say that Silicon Valley has a "race problem" and only include the employment statistics as they relate to the populati…

To me the issue is not discrimination but rather representation. I will give you a concrete example. Our team (working in medicine) had very few Latinos for a long time. As a result of this we completely avoided gathering training data from Latin America because no one was well versed in how to conduct business there, yet we had data/deals with US, Europe and Asia. As a result our algorithms will likely not help Lati…

I agree that we all have blind spots and that diversity in decision-makers can help correct these. If this principle was applied consistently across any dimension where such blind spots are likely to exist, I would be on board. However when some axes of diversity are elevated over others, based not on likeliness of blind spots but rather on unrelated grievances ("historically marginalized subgroups"), the whole exercise takes on a character of social activism. Social activism is important, but has blind spots of its own, and the culture of activism these days seems increasingly insistent on not recognizing them.

Re: Silicon Valley Is Using Trade Secrets to Hide Its Race Problem

#90
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are they irrelevant? Why can't the data be used to address this disparity? If certain groups shy away from STEM careers, why not try to do something about it?

Women and blacks should have the right to choose their own destiny, who are we to tell them they're supposed to go into tech?

Is this what I said? Some straw man.

What I said was we should we work towards removing any obstacles underrepresented groups may face when trying to enter STEM careers.

Plenty of research that supports the existence of such obstacles and the higher drop out rates of these groups even after having a go at pursuing a career in a STEM field (particularly in tech - https://hbr.org/2016/09/what-it-will-take-to-keep-women-from...).

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