Free Money Didn’t Help People Find Jobs, Finland Says • Hacker News Board

Re: Free Money Didn’t Help People Find Jobs, Finland Says

#41

Post by Isinlor » Wed, Feb 13, 2019, 10:31 AM UTC

skocznymroczny wrote: post #13

Can anyone explain to me, with basic income, why wouldn't I want to sit at home all day and play videogames?

There is no reason. Most people would end up doing exactly that. I find myself somewhat in that position. I work remotely as Software Developer / Analyst 1 day a week earning a living wage and spend rest of my time reading :) . Interestingly, taxes in Belgium are so progressive that working 1/5 pays quite much more than 1/5 of full salary.

BTW - You must know the Polish phrase from communist times: "Czy się stoi, czy się leży, dwa tysiące się należy.". For English speakers: "Down you lie or up you stand, either way you'll earn a grand". Here is how it looked like: https://d-pt.ppstatic.pl/kadry/k/r/1/01/3b/58f074a3247ac_o,s...

Re: Free Money Didn’t Help People Find Jobs, Finland Says

#42

Post by Cthulhu_ » Wed, Feb 13, 2019, 10:31 AM UTC

SiempreViernes wrote: post #7

perfunctory wrote: post #2

I find this title a good example of framing. From the article: "On the basis of an analysis of register data on an annual level, we can say that during the first year of the experiment the recipients of a basic income were no better or worse than the control group at finding employment in the open labor market" So you can say "free money didn't help people find jobs", or you could say "free money didn't discourage pe…

It's even better than that! The title the authors of the study put on their press release is: "Preliminary results of the basic income experiment: self-perceived wellbeing improved, during the first year no effects on employment"[0] So not only does Bloomberg frame it like the doomsday prediction that everyone would turn into idlers never happened, the significant increase in mental health is just quietly sidestepped…

As an extension, I'd like to know whether the performance of the people that were employed (or became employed) during that experiment has improved to a measurable degree due to their increased happiness; I'm aware it can be very difficult to measure an will require long term study, but that would be a factor that would make both governments and businesses happy with providing a basic income.

Re: Free Money Didn’t Help People Find Jobs, Finland Says

#43

Post by LoSboccacc » Wed, Feb 13, 2019, 10:31 AM UTC

Robin_Message wrote: post #5

perfunctory wrote: post #2

I find this title a good example of framing. From the article: "On the basis of an analysis of register data on an annual level, we can say that during the first year of the experiment the recipients of a basic income were no better or worse than the control group at finding employment in the open labor market" So you can say "free money didn't help people find jobs", or you could say "free money didn't discourage pe…

And the report I heard said they were happier and had better mental health, which has got to be worth something on its own. Also, only giving basic income to unemployed people doesn't give good data on what a society-wide basic income would do. My reading of the study is "bureaucratic and narrowly defined job search advice and systems depress people but have no positive impact in them getting a job" - as you say, the…

Dunno the society but I would drop jobs to program videogames. Don't think it would be a net benefit for the world but would increase my well being for sure.

One question remains tho. If I were to benefit economically from the art production that basic income would enable me to do, would it be ethical to keep that income?

Re: Free Money Didn’t Help People Find Jobs, Finland Says

#44

Post by askmike » Wed, Feb 13, 2019, 10:32 AM UTC

VvR-Ox wrote: post #15

SiempreViernes wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's even better than that! The title the authors of the study put on their press release is: "Preliminary results of the basic income experiment: self-perceived wellbeing improved, during the first year no effects on employment"[0] So not only does Bloomberg frame it like the doomsday prediction that everyone would turn into idlers never happened, the significant increase in mental health is just quietly sidestepped…

THAT is exactly the problem: OUR SYSTEM doesn't care how happy you are, as long as you're productive enough for some people to get rich. No one cares if you have a job, if you are homeless or have to suffer poverty. OUR SOCIETY values power and wealth (at least here in the west, I heard about other countries who don't do this so dedicated). If you're poor, sick or have no job than there is even people who'd argue for…

> If you're poor, sick or have no job than there is even people who'd argue for mercy killing you as not being strong enough for our good society.

Where do you meet people who argue for that? I Have never heard that outside of (very) dystopian novels.

Re: Free Money Didn’t Help People Find Jobs, Finland Says

#45

Post by pikzel » Wed, Feb 13, 2019, 10:33 AM UTC

KaiserPro wrote: post #29

no, but it makes people happy. Now, obviously that's a bit against the capitalist grain and all that, but think of it this way: the Luddite rebellion, and mass unrest happened in the UK because people's livelihoods were taken away. Either through automation, or enclosure. This left thousands upon thousands of people with little left to lose forced to crime in order to eat. This is expensive for wider society, you nee…

But as someone else has to pay for their free money, the perceived happiness needs to be quantified.

Re: Free Money Didn’t Help People Find Jobs, Finland Says

#46

Post by Cthulhu_ » Wed, Feb 13, 2019, 10:34 AM UTC

x10yy wrote: post #34

Perhaps the participants in the study were carefully selected to get the desired outcome. I can't imaging that this is true in the general case.

Another commenter pointed it out; these were people that already were unemployed for two years. Which can mean a number of things, but for one, having a gap of two years in your CV will make potential employers raise an eyebrow.

Re: Free Money Didn’t Help People Find Jobs, Finland Says

#47

Post by nelsonic » Wed, Feb 13, 2019, 10:34 AM UTC

eloisant wrote: post #8

Well that's missing the point. Basic income is not supposed to help them find jobs that can sustain them so they no longer need it, but make it optional. Stop make it mandatory to have a well paying job to be able to afford rent and food. Which, by the way, only applies to middle and lower classes anyway because people from higher classes can live off their investments and don't have to work.

Indeed this Bloomberg reporter entirely misses the point! The point of UBI is to free people from BS Jobs and instead help people find meaning in life beyond their "unemployment". It should encourage creative risk-taking with a guaranteed safety-net income. If people are cash-poor they cannot think beyond the stress of paying bills and are forced to take a "wage-slave" JOB (Just Over Broke).

Re: Free Money Didn’t Help People Find Jobs, Finland Says

#48

Post by zozbot123 » Wed, Feb 13, 2019, 10:35 AM UTC

perfunctory wrote: post #2

I find this title a good example of framing. From the article: "On the basis of an analysis of register data on an annual level, we can say that during the first year of the experiment the recipients of a basic income were no better or worse than the control group at finding employment in the open labor market" So you can say "free money didn't help people find jobs", or you could say "free money didn't discourage pe…

> So you can say "free money didn't help people find jobs", or you could say "free money didn't discourage people to seek jobs". The connotation is a bit different.

Right. Most perceptibly, you could even frame it as "Disincentive effects from unemployment benefits may be lower than previously feared; switching to free money didn't make people seek more work."

Re: Free Money Didn’t Help People Find Jobs, Finland Says

#49

Post by Cthulhu_ » Wed, Feb 13, 2019, 10:36 AM UTC

pikzel wrote: post #45

KaiserPro wrote: post #29

no, but it makes people happy. Now, obviously that's a bit against the capitalist grain and all that, but think of it this way: the Luddite rebellion, and mass unrest happened in the UK because people's livelihoods were taken away. Either through automation, or enclosure. This left thousands upon thousands of people with little left to lose forced to crime in order to eat. This is expensive for wider society, you nee…

But as someone else has to pay for their free money, the perceived happiness needs to be quantified.

That's one thing that keeps getting omitted in these things. I don't believe that current unemployment benefits are just as expensive as "just" giving everyone the same amount of money.

Plus if it has to be a minimal living income - like minimum wage once was supposed to be - it would have to be higher to cover rent, food, and other mandatory expenses in most places. Or is the idea to adjust it according to where people live? That will just open it up to a lot of fraud attempts.

Re: Free Money Didn’t Help People Find Jobs, Finland Says

#50

Post by mcv » Wed, Feb 13, 2019, 10:37 AM UTC

skocznymroczny wrote: post #13

Can anyone explain to me, with basic income, why wouldn't I want to sit at home all day and play videogames?

Why would someone who inherits money not sit home all day and play videogames? Why would someone with sizable investments not sit home and play videogames?

There are already people who receive free money, and nobody seems to worry about what they do with their time. In general, most people seem to think more money is better for them, so they work to increase the amount of money they get. One of the ideas behind basic income is that by removing obstacles and disincentives to work, maybe people will feel more free to look for a good job.