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Show HN: DeskGap – Like Electron, but uses the system webview

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Re: Show HN: DeskGap – Like Electron, but uses the system webview

#151

Post by _pmf_ »

Klonoar wrote: post #5

These projects completely overlook _why_ people choose Electron over the system view. - Nobody wants to be testing against multiple browser/rendering engines in 2019. - Nobody wants to wait for a vendor to update their implementation when Chrome has the feature available almost immediately. Edit: Since I can already see the litany of armchair-quarterback-desktop-app-authors, I'm just going to link to the comment from…

> Since I can already see the litany of armchair-quarterback-desktop-app-authors

I'm so very sorry our 20 years of experience that causes us to reject the subpar monstrosities you like to call "dektop apps" rubs you the wrong way.

Re: Show HN: DeskGap – Like Electron, but uses the system webview

#152

Post by faitswulff »

fxfan wrote: post #137
disillusion wrote: post #122

I think it's interesting how debates about Electron inevitably end up with the arguments 'the developer wants X' vs 'the user wants Y'. However, there's one aspect a lot of people seem to overlook in their arguments: pragmatism. The ideal application: - uses almost no memory - uses almost no disk space - is extremely fast - costs (next to) nothing - and has all the features in the world - presented in a manner that a…

> snappy enough to run > Electron is a new brainer Not everyone on earth is a dev/gamer/video-editor. For regular people, electron is a cancer that needs to be nipped in the bud. Remember, 91% of the desktop on earth is Windows (meaning regular USD 300 machines). And of them I'd wager less than 10% fit have machines where electron is snappy (1.2K Thinkpads). What the earth needs is a better cross platform native GUI…

> Not everyone on earth is a dev/gamer/video-editor. For regular people, electron is a cancer that needs to be nipped in the bud.

That's not how I expected that sentence to end. I don't think regular people are nearly as concerned with performance as the groups you listed are. Regular people are probably using Electron via Slack for work and if it's slow and bloated it's ultimately not their problem. Even a few seconds delay won't cost them anything when it's still a faster replacement for email.

Re: Show HN: DeskGap – Like Electron, but uses the system webview

#153

Post by TomMarius »

MrStonedOne wrote: post #147
TomMarius wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is incorrect. Programs can't share memory just because they've been launched from the same binary. This is just reusing a DLL and saving disk space thanks to it.

You are confusing data memory and code memory.

I am not, actually I am pointing out that the comment I replied to does.

Re: Show HN: DeskGap – Like Electron, but uses the system webview

#154

Post by rkangel »

sigi45 wrote: post #150
disillusion wrote: post #122

I think it's interesting how debates about Electron inevitably end up with the arguments 'the developer wants X' vs 'the user wants Y'. However, there's one aspect a lot of people seem to overlook in their arguments: pragmatism. The ideal application: - uses almost no memory - uses almost no disk space - is extremely fast - costs (next to) nothing - and has all the features in the world - presented in a manner that a…

Slack is Electron. Slack is installed on many laptops. Slack App just sucks and wastes real resources.

Genuine question - why do people install the Slack App? I haven't in ages, I just use the web-app and am very happy.

Re: Show HN: DeskGap – Like Electron, but uses the system webview

#155

Post by fxfan »

faitswulff wrote: post #152
fxfan wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> snappy enough to run > Electron is a new brainer Not everyone on earth is a dev/gamer/video-editor. For regular people, electron is a cancer that needs to be nipped in the bud. Remember, 91% of the desktop on earth is Windows (meaning regular USD 300 machines). And of them I'd wager less than 10% fit have machines where electron is snappy (1.2K Thinkpads). What the earth needs is a better cross platform native GUI…

> Not everyone on earth is a dev/gamer/video-editor. For regular people, electron is a cancer that needs to be nipped in the bud. That's not how I expected that sentence to end. I don't think regular people are nearly as concerned with performance as the groups you listed are. Regular people are probably using Electron via Slack for work and if it's slow and bloated it's ultimately not their problem. Even a few secon…

How many non-devs (equivalent to the group of RAM < 6GB) use slack?

Re: Show HN: DeskGap – Like Electron, but uses the system webview

#156

Post by josteink »

Klonoar wrote: post #5

These projects completely overlook _why_ people choose Electron over the system view. - Nobody wants to be testing against multiple browser/rendering engines in 2019. - Nobody wants to wait for a vendor to update their implementation when Chrome has the feature available almost immediately. Edit: Since I can already see the litany of armchair-quarterback-desktop-app-authors, I'm just going to link to the comment from…

> Nobody wants to be testing against multiple browser/rendering engines in 2019.

Speak for yourself.

I hate to break it to you, but in the real world there are multiple browsers.

Not testing in more than one is lazy, standards ignorant and an insult to your users.

Let’s not repeat the MSIE-fiasco again. We know better. We can do better.

Re: Show HN: DeskGap – Like Electron, but uses the system webview

#157

Post by beaconstudios »

fxfan wrote: post #137
disillusion wrote: post #122

I think it's interesting how debates about Electron inevitably end up with the arguments 'the developer wants X' vs 'the user wants Y'. However, there's one aspect a lot of people seem to overlook in their arguments: pragmatism. The ideal application: - uses almost no memory - uses almost no disk space - is extremely fast - costs (next to) nothing - and has all the features in the world - presented in a manner that a…

> snappy enough to run > Electron is a new brainer Not everyone on earth is a dev/gamer/video-editor. For regular people, electron is a cancer that needs to be nipped in the bud. Remember, 91% of the desktop on earth is Windows (meaning regular USD 300 machines). And of them I'd wager less than 10% fit have machines where electron is snappy (1.2K Thinkpads). What the earth needs is a better cross platform native GUI…

and until that exists?

Re: Show HN: DeskGap – Like Electron, but uses the system webview

#158

Post by lozenge »

TomMarius wrote: post #131
accatyyc wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because if it uses the same browser binary as your other web apps (tabs or other DeskGap apps), the OS can share memory between them. Not possible with electron since every app bundles its own Chromium binary.

That is incorrect. Programs can't share memory just because they've been launched from the same binary. This is just reusing a DLL and saving disk space thanks to it.

Shared memory is "a method of conserving memory space by directing accesses to what would ordinarily be copies of a piece of data to a single instance instead, by using virtual memory mappings or with explicit support of the program in question. This is most often used for shared libraries and for Execute in place (XIP)" according to Wikipedia.

Re: Show HN: DeskGap – Like Electron, but uses the system webview

#159

Post by dspillett »

fxfan wrote: post #137
disillusion wrote: post #122

I think it's interesting how debates about Electron inevitably end up with the arguments 'the developer wants X' vs 'the user wants Y'. However, there's one aspect a lot of people seem to overlook in their arguments: pragmatism. The ideal application: - uses almost no memory - uses almost no disk space - is extremely fast - costs (next to) nothing - and has all the features in the world - presented in a manner that a…

> snappy enough to run > Electron is a new brainer Not everyone on earth is a dev/gamer/video-editor. For regular people, electron is a cancer that needs to be nipped in the bud. Remember, 91% of the desktop on earth is Windows (meaning regular USD 300 machines). And of them I'd wager less than 10% fit have machines where electron is snappy (1.2K Thinkpads). What the earth needs is a better cross platform native GUI…

But also remember that those $300 machines are mostly used for next to nothing. For the vast majority of the time people with those machines will have a couple of social media apps open in browsers, a media player running, maybe a mail reader, and perhaps some simple casual game. They aren't going to be running the several apps of any sort, never mind Electron ones, so what does it matter that several Electron apps would make the machine grind into a swappy mess?

If the regular people expect anything modern to be snappy on those machines then they have been mis-sold to[1] and that isn't our fault as devs.

> What the earth needs is...

Then why don't you put a team together and make it, and gain the fame and fortune that comes from solving the matter?

> NOT electron

Nobody is forcing you to use Electron based apps. If you find them, or anything else, too slow then find an alternative that is in a native toolset or entirely browser based, or what-ever.

A key problem is that people want what the want, they want it now, they want it to work on their platform without needing specific version of anything else (i.e. a browser), and they want it free. If Electron allows the thing to be delivered now, in a cross-platform manner, and people aren't willing to wait or pay for the dev time to develop in something smaller/nippier, then Electron is what devs are going to use.

I remember similar arguments regarding VB way back when: people wanting something that started faster and used less RAM bitterly complaining, but not wanting to use alternatives that were available because they cost more. To my mind Electron has a very similar feel to VB back then: great for prototyping, but can be used to produce fuller solutions too if you are willing to accept the cost in speed and weight.

[1] Oh how I love having to explain that 32GB total storage isn't really enough for Win10, especially when that is slow eMMC and the machine is swapping to it on account of only having 2GB RAM, when the sales person[2] said otherwise.

[2] People don't seem to accept "well go ask the salesman to make Office fit and make it go fast for you, you obviously think he knows more than I do"[3] as a valid response...

[3] Heck, those diminutive laptops/tablets/black-boxes-to-plug-into-your-tv, that are still being actively sold as Win10 compatible, can't even install the latest Win10 updates without some technical jiggery-pokery.

Re: Show HN: DeskGap – Like Electron, but uses the system webview

#160

Post by blablabla123 »

disillusion wrote: post #122

I think it's interesting how debates about Electron inevitably end up with the arguments 'the developer wants X' vs 'the user wants Y'. However, there's one aspect a lot of people seem to overlook in their arguments: pragmatism. The ideal application: - uses almost no memory - uses almost no disk space - is extremely fast - costs (next to) nothing - and has all the features in the world - presented in a manner that a…

>The ideal application:

>- and has all the features in the world

In this case it's okay if it uses up all disc and memory. Actually it can even cost something in this case because only one application is needed.

It should be open source though so users can audit it and fix bugs if required. You see, just by requiring consistency in the requirements, one can get very far. Optimizing for typical startup metrics is just one way to do things but not the only valid one.

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