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Amazon, GM in talks to invest in electric pickup truck maker Rivian: sources

reuters.com

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Re: Amazon, GM in talks to invest in electric pickup truck maker Rivian: sources

#31

Post by bobsil1 »

dangrossman wrote: post #8
mlacks wrote: post #2

Why do auto makers seem to be so against working with Tesla to bring electric vehicles to market? Now that I think about it, it seems like most car companies are trying to do the electric thing on their own, and if they do ask for help it’s from somebody that’s sort of out of their industry and not a direct competitor (yet). This is in contrast with for example how Mazda is working with Toyota on hybrid drive, and ho…

Tesla had a joint venture with Toyota years ago. They were making the drivetrain for the RAV4 EV. Toyota offered to provide the same kind of training in assembly methods to Tesla that they once provided to GM in the very same place (Tesla's factory is the former GM/Toyota NUMMI factory), but reportedly Tesla clashed with Toyota's engineers and management, so the whole partnership dissolved. I don't think anyone wants…

Toyota also made its big platform bet on mild hybrids and hydrogen, which Elon rightly scoffed at. No doubt there was big culture friction.

Re: Amazon, GM in talks to invest in electric pickup truck maker Rivian: sources

#32

Post by microcolonel »

bonestamp2 wrote: post #30

This is great, but I also want Amazon to build a high speed rail network across the country. I think they're trying to build their own airline, at least for package logistics but they can't get planes fast enough. They could probably build rail much faster in certain areas and they could use it for people and order logistics.

> They could probably build rail much faster in certain areas and they could use it for people and order logistics.

You're not alone in this, but why do you think passenger rail makes any sense in the U.S? As far as I can tell, it makes very little. People's big plans for rail in the U.S. tend to rely on some major change in one or more factors of feasibility, and people justify these plans by calling that or those factors "trivial, with political will!"; I find it unconvincing.

Re: Amazon, GM in talks to invest in electric pickup truck maker Rivian: sources

#33

Post by microcolonel »

Element_ wrote: post #14
jschwartzi wrote: post #10

The only thing I really take issue with on this truck is that the spare tire is accessed through the top of the bed. There are two reasons you don't want to do this in a truck: 1.) The bed needs to be very strong because people routinely put weight on dunnage in the bed, and the door doesn't appear to be corrugated to withstand load. 2.) If you want to change your flat tire you need to unload everything in the bed, w…

I think the reason the spare tire isn't more easily accessible is because of the importance of aerodynamics in electric vehicles (It can't just be bolted underneath or to the back). Also the CEO mentioned in an interview that the spare tire can be removed to gain a large water proof storage compartment under the bed.

> It can't just be bolted underneath or to the back

Well, if it is bolted under, it needs its own cover/plate, which increases the weight of the surrounding structure (since whatever's there can't be structural).

Re: Amazon, GM in talks to invest in electric pickup truck maker Rivian: sources

#34

Post by ProfessorLayton »

bobsil1 wrote: post #31
dangrossman wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tesla had a joint venture with Toyota years ago. They were making the drivetrain for the RAV4 EV. Toyota offered to provide the same kind of training in assembly methods to Tesla that they once provided to GM in the very same place (Tesla's factory is the former GM/Toyota NUMMI factory), but reportedly Tesla clashed with Toyota's engineers and management, so the whole partnership dissolved. I don't think anyone wants…

Toyota also made its big platform bet on mild hybrids and hydrogen, which Elon rightly scoffed at. No doubt there was big culture friction.

Agree with your hydrogen point, but curious to know a bit more about your mild hybrid reference. AFAIK Toyota’s Hybrid Synergy Drive was the best in class parallel hybrid system. In fact, many hybrids on the market, such as the Fusion Hybrid, were licensed HSD from Toyota.

Honda now has a more advanced 2-motor series hybrid system, similar to the Volt, but both systems are a lot more complex (expensive) than the brilliantly simple way HSD combines power from the motor and engine.

Additionally, the hybrid bet paid off handsomely for Toyota.

Re: Amazon, GM in talks to invest in electric pickup truck maker Rivian: sources

#35

Post by clouddrover »

ProfessorLayton wrote: post #34
bobsil1 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Toyota also made its big platform bet on mild hybrids and hydrogen, which Elon rightly scoffed at. No doubt there was big culture friction.

Agree with your hydrogen point, but curious to know a bit more about your mild hybrid reference. AFAIK Toyota’s Hybrid Synergy Drive was the best in class parallel hybrid system. In fact, many hybrids on the market, such as the Fusion Hybrid, were licensed HSD from Toyota. Honda now has a more advanced 2-motor series hybrid system, similar to the Volt, but both systems are a lot more complex (expensive) than the bril…

And the Toyota Prius is reckoned to be the cheapest car to own and maintain:

https://www.consumerreports.org/cro/news/2013/02/most-and-le...

https://www.yourmechanic.com/article/the-most-and-least-expe...

I'd say any scoffing was misguided.

Re: Amazon, GM in talks to invest in electric pickup truck maker Rivian: sources

#36

Post by bonestamp2 »

microcolonel wrote: post #32
bonestamp2 wrote: post #30

This is great, but I also want Amazon to build a high speed rail network across the country. I think they're trying to build their own airline, at least for package logistics but they can't get planes fast enough. They could probably build rail much faster in certain areas and they could use it for people and order logistics.

> They could probably build rail much faster in certain areas and they could use it for people and order logistics. You're not alone in this, but why do you think passenger rail makes any sense in the U.S? As far as I can tell, it makes very little. People's big plans for rail in the U.S. tend to rely on some major change in one or more factors of feasibility, and people justify these plans by calling that or those f…

Well, I don't think high speed passenger rail makes a lot of sense on its own. But, it might make sense along with high speed delivery trains, especially on certain routes:

West Coast: (Seattle?), SF, LA, SD

Midwest: Twin Cities, Madison, Milwaukee, Chicago, Detroit

Northeast: NY, Philly, DC

Southeast: Atlanta, Jacksonville, Orlando, Miami

Yes, flying is faster and maybe even cheaper. But, the experience of flying is awful and getting worse. If it's between 3 hours in airports, security and an airplane or 4 hours on high speed rail where I can put my feet up, catch a nap in an actual bed, use my cellphone and wifi, collaborate with colleagues, eat good food, etc... I'd take the train every time. Hell, on the Toronto/Ottawa route, flying is cheaper and there's no high speed rail, but many business travelers still choose slow rail because the experience is so much better. Make it a little more competitive in travel time, and it starts to become very attractive.

Business travelers aren't as price sensitive, and if they can make good use of the time working or resting then it can easily be justified.

Re: Amazon, GM in talks to invest in electric pickup truck maker Rivian: sources

#37

Post by taneq »

Element_ wrote: post #14
jschwartzi wrote: post #10

The only thing I really take issue with on this truck is that the spare tire is accessed through the top of the bed. There are two reasons you don't want to do this in a truck: 1.) The bed needs to be very strong because people routinely put weight on dunnage in the bed, and the door doesn't appear to be corrugated to withstand load. 2.) If you want to change your flat tire you need to unload everything in the bed, w…

I think the reason the spare tire isn't more easily accessible is because of the importance of aerodynamics in electric vehicles (It can't just be bolted underneath or to the back). Also the CEO mentioned in an interview that the spare tire can be removed to gain a large water proof storage compartment under the bed.

> It can't just be bolted underneath or to the back

Why not just bolt it underneath and put a cover over it? The cover would weigh less than a couple of kilos and probably improve the vehicle's overall aerodynamics anyway.

Re: Amazon, GM in talks to invest in electric pickup truck maker Rivian: sources

#38

Post by Sendotsh »

taneq wrote: post #37
Element_ wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the reason the spare tire isn't more easily accessible is because of the importance of aerodynamics in electric vehicles (It can't just be bolted underneath or to the back). Also the CEO mentioned in an interview that the spare tire can be removed to gain a large water proof storage compartment under the bed.

> It can't just be bolted underneath or to the back Why not just bolt it underneath and put a cover over it? The cover would weigh less than a couple of kilos and probably improve the vehicle's overall aerodynamics anyway.

If it's like lots of other EVs, the batteries go completely across the bottom of the vehicle for a low COG.

Re: Amazon, GM in talks to invest in electric pickup truck maker Rivian: sources

#39

Post by jschwartzi »

microcolonel wrote: post #33
Element_ wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the reason the spare tire isn't more easily accessible is because of the importance of aerodynamics in electric vehicles (It can't just be bolted underneath or to the back). Also the CEO mentioned in an interview that the spare tire can be removed to gain a large water proof storage compartment under the bed.

> It can't just be bolted underneath or to the back Well, if it is bolted under, it needs its own cover/plate, which increases the weight of the surrounding structure (since whatever's there can't be structural).

It doesn't need a cover/plate. Every full-size or mid-size truck I've owned hoists the spare underneath the bed without a cover. Tires are very durable, and if something impacts the tire it's probably destroyed your differential, brakes, and/or axle too so the spare isn't terribly useful.

Re: Amazon, GM in talks to invest in electric pickup truck maker Rivian: sources

#40

Post by jschwartzi »

Sendotsh wrote: post #38
taneq wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It can't just be bolted underneath or to the back Why not just bolt it underneath and put a cover over it? The cover would weigh less than a couple of kilos and probably improve the vehicle's overall aerodynamics anyway.

If it's like lots of other EVs, the batteries go completely across the bottom of the vehicle for a low COG.

Yeah, this is probably why they went this route, and it makes a lot of sense. It's just strange to see it advertised as a design feature. Having it called out like that as if it's something I want in a truck was very jarring, like they didn't really understand what I would be using a truck for.
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