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A letter to Steven Pinker about global poverty

jasonhickel.org

231–240 of 254 posts

Re: A letter to Steven Pinker about global poverty

#231
post #142

Most people here seem to be missing the point: it’s not that poverty hasn’t been moderately improved over the past 30 years, but rather that Pinker’s work has had an incredibly outsized impact on policy and influence on media narratives. Simply put, Pinker and Gates have tricked much of the world into thinking neoliberalism is the best thing ever, even though the data actually shows that the majority of the improveme…

"even though the data actually shows that the majority of the improvement comes from other brands of economic policy" Can you expand on this? Genuinely interested.

The statistics Hinkel cites are fairly clear: the bulk of the reduction in poverty (which he disputes in overall effect but agrees has happened at some scale) has been from economies like China that operate with very different economic strategies than the neoliberalism Pinker and Gates advocate.

Read the article or listen to he podcast, they’re both good! :)

And: apologies if I’m not being clear about something, unlike the below commenter seems to think I’m happy to expand on what I’m saying.

Re: A letter to Steven Pinker about global poverty

#232
post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"even though the data actually shows that the majority of the improvement comes from other brands of economic policy" Can you expand on this? Genuinely interested.

They are referring to Chinese and other Southeast Asian policies, as Hickels said in his post. What they won't say is that those policies are fundamentally capitalist in nature. China's economy is capitalist at its core, with a super powerful state (that happens to be remarkably repressive to its citizens, an inconvenient fact Hickels simply ignores) that engages in protectionism for specific national industries. Hic…

I didn’t say markets are a bad way to value goods, man, I said china’s state planned and financed approach to the market has produced the gains Pinker is saying neoliberalism should get credit for. What we’re talking about here is the false idea that America’s approach to capitalism is responsible for very much of the global reduction in poverty, and whether we should consider other modes instead.

Re: A letter to Steven Pinker about global poverty

#233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Hickel accuses Gates/Pinker et. al. of promoting 'hard neoliberal' (i.e. strong free market) ideals. I don't believe this characterization is fair. Gates/Pinker are selling exactly the antidote to potential guilt for "kicking away the ladder". History makes clear that "free market" ideals never apply to ourselves, only to those colonies and developing nations the IMF and World Bank can coerce into line. Argentina h…

I am from Argentina, and the "sold out to the World Bank" narrative is really harmful to my country. Stop spreading it, you're totally clueless about it. What really made us poorer is chronic budget deficit supported by debt and inflation, and systemic corruption that weak institutions can't fight. As an example, we have two ex-presidents-now-senators that are condemned by Justice System but protected by special lega…

During the same period, we have put presidents in jail immediately after the end of their term, others have fled, another has committed suicide, and it's open knowledge that corruption is rampant. We had dictator presidents for decades. Park Chung Hee, widely credited with the miracle on the Han, was a dictatorial strongman with little grand plan except that knew protectionist policies would allow Korea to trade favorably, and trade up the industrial ladder from textiles to shipbuilding.

Re: A letter to Steven Pinker about global poverty

#234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Hickel accuses Gates/Pinker et. al. of promoting 'hard neoliberal' (i.e. strong free market) ideals. I don't believe this characterization is fair. Gates/Pinker are selling exactly the antidote to potential guilt for "kicking away the ladder". History makes clear that "free market" ideals never apply to ourselves, only to those colonies and developing nations the IMF and World Bank can coerce into line. Argentina h…

There was effectively a uprising, a revolutionary coup and a dictatorship in Argentina during that time, causing enormous political turmoil. And your blaming this in the 'World Bank' and 'Capitalists'? No. Neoliberals had little to do with it. My comment stands: Pinker is not a neoliberal, and he's not even supporting neoliberalism. Frankly neither is Bill Gates. A 'neoliberal' would not support things like socialize…

During the same period, we have put presidents in jail immediately after the end of their term, others have fled with billions, another has committed suicide, and it's open knowledge that corruption is rampant and a handful of conglomerates own the country. Our very last president was impeached and thrown directly in jail due to a popular uprising. We had dictator presidents for decades. Park Chung Hee, widely credited with the Miracle on the Han, was a dictatorial strongman with little grand plan except that knew protectionist policies would allow Korea to trade favorably, and trade up the industrial ladder from textiles to shipbuilding.

Gates and Pinker are giving ground on marginal issues like healthcare, but pushing the core agenda of "free markets make everyone's lives better".

Re: A letter to Steven Pinker about global poverty

#235
post #13

One of the most amazing things I learned reading the excellent "Factfullness" by Hans Rosling [1] is that the poorest countries in the world are currently improving faster than any country ever did, at any point in history. That's correct - countries like Lesotho and Central African Republic are improving faster than his home country of Sweden ever did, at any time. In only his lifetime Sweden went from having an inf…

That argument is both true and deceiving at the same time. The poorest countries are improving the most because they are so far behind everyone else that any improvement is spectacular when viewed as a percentage. Take a homeless person who has a penny to his name. You give him $100 and his wealth skyrockets by 1000000% in a day. Compare that to bill gates whose wealth probably increases by a "measly" 10% per year. B…

> The idea that the poorest countries ( like CAR ) is going to lead the world is unrealistic barring some apocalyptic event in the US, Europe, East Asia, Middle East.

That's not at all what I said.

What I meant was that Sweden (and every developed country) improved in one generation from where CAR is today to where Sweden is today.

CAR is currently improving faster than Sweden ever did, so it's probably that in one generation CAR will be where Sweden is today.

Of course, Sweden will probably improve in that same generation.

Re: A letter to Steven Pinker about global poverty

#236
post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you make of this? “Are You Ready To Consider That Capitalism Is The Real Problem?” https://www.fastcompany.com/40439316/are-you-ready-to-consid... “Don’t Be Scared About The End Of Capitalism—Be Excited To Build What Comes Next” https://www.fastcompany.com/40454254/dont-be-scared-about-th... --- I have no time for ideologues (from whichever side of the aisle they come) who present capitalism and socialism as…

I only read the first article, since I can't invest so much time in articles today :) I think the man has correctly identified the flaws of capitalism and is rightfully asking why we can't fix some of those by changing capitalism. Any political system can become harmful to individuals and society when pushed to its extremes, as it's happening now in western societies, but especially in the US. PS: maybe whoever is do…

> PS: maybe whoever is downvoting all these comments can take a break and get some fresh air.

Thanks for saying that. I wish people would tell me what they take issue with so I could debate them.

Hickel has not correctly identified the flaws of capitalism. He has identified the flaws in human nature. Particularly greed and lack of empathy for others not in your situation. But we all know those anyway. What he's doing is blaming capitalism because that's an easy cheap shot that everyone agrees with. Distributing some of the profit of a company to the shareholders and bosses is not morally wrong. Doing so to the detriment of the workers is. If, as in the example in the article, JP Morgan and the general stock market dump on you for worker-friendly moves then double-down and let JP Morgan and general stock market dump on you. Ordinary people will respect you and choose to use your company. Change the culture.

And blaming the Grenfell Tower disaster in London on capitalism?! That's just naked greed, that's all that is – saving a few thousand for your pocket. May that decision forever weigh on their consciences. It's an insult to everyone who died in that fire to blame what happened on capitalism.

> Any political system can become harmful to individuals and society when pushed to its extremes, as it's happening now in western societies, but especially in the US.

Capitalism is an economic system, not a political system. Look, don't be hoodwinked by these people. They are ideologues. Why can't Hickel say that he's for curbing the excesses of capitalism? Because it doesn't tap into your lizard brain, it's not emotive enough. Read it again and see that Hickel never says that he's against the extremes of capitalism, he's against capitalism itself – ask yourself why that is … he's either an ideologue, a bad faith actor, or economically not at the races or a combo of all three. Even Piketty, who has written the most cogent critique of capitalism in many a year, doesn't push an essentially anti-capitalist position.

Why I really dislike people like Hickel is because we're never allowed to give ourselves some praise or credit for doing the right thing. Lifting hundreds of millions out of poverty? Sorry, gotta exclude China from my graph. Why? Because it looks too good and invalidates my argument. That's why Hickel pushes against Pinker, because Pinker had the audacity to point out that maybe we're doing something right. You didn't hear a peep from Hickel when Pinker was talking about rates of violence (though he got it in the neck from people like John Gray for other reasons) but when Pinker starts saying that some of our policies against poverty are working Hickel's right there waiting to rain on his parade.

Like I say, there are a couple of serious problems with Pinker's book but Hickel has not identified one of them.

Re: A letter to Steven Pinker about global poverty

#237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes it's actually true. It's more that the counter-position broadly applied over the long run is untenable. If you don't own the home you live in and/or the land it stands on then you are by definition renting that property. A portion of your labour is going straight to someone who owns at least one home and some land thus depending on how long this goes on for drives inequality. It's not called “Rentier Capitalism”…

Sorry, I meant to ask if you had any evidence that it was true, rather than if you just had some reasoning that it was true. As far as I can tell social mobility in Europe is about as good as it is in the US despite the much higher home ownership rate in the US. Yes, home ownership provides a way for people to accumulate wealth that is tax advantaged by US government policy. But does it provide the same benefit in co…

I see what you're saying.

That's too counter-intuitive for me. I'd need a lot more than one article to change my mind on this.

All other things being equal, if you're paying down a mortgage rather than lining someone else's pocket that has to be a good thing for you. Because when you have the mortgage paid off you own a property.

Just because in some places (like parts of Europe) there are tenant councils and strong tenant rights which makes being a tenant less bad doesn't then make the reverse situation (working towards owning your own home) less good.

And just because there are negative externalities to homeownership in a certain job market says just as much about that particular job market as it does about homeownership.

Re: A letter to Steven Pinker about global poverty

#238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Enlightenment Now was easily Pinker's worst book. It took the counter-intuitive theme ("hey, things are not so bad when you look at the data") of Better Angels of Our Nature – which is a great book – and ran with it. Enlightenment Now is really two books: the first part deals with (chapter by chapter) a successive list of indicators of human progress. It's second part deals with the philosophical reasons behind human…

Your essay is written as though more than one person wrote it because its so self contradictory. Capitalism and Public programs are in conflict because underlying public efforts is progressive taxation (aka Redistribution). Labour protections (which again is anti capitalist) are pretty key for the creation of the middle class in western countries. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkPQbJ4jRhE

It only appears self-contradictory because we're told day in and day out that labour protections are anti-capitalist. They're not. If you think about it, labour protections are pro-capitalist because they agree the current model works and just want to make the wealth flow fairly to everybody rather than to those who initially control the capital. Labour protections would be about dismantling capitalism if they were anti-capitalist.

> Capitalism and Public programs are in conflict because underlying public efforts is progressive taxation (aka Redistribution)

With respect, that sentence makes no sense. Progressive taxation (aka Redistribution, aka something I completely agree with) does not underlie public efforts. Taxation alone underlies all public efforts. Taxation comes in many stripes: regressive, flat, progressive. Progressive taxation makes sure the rich shoulder a fair portion of the tax burden rather then the less well off. Who tries to roll back progressive tax policies? The rich. Not all the rich are capitalists, many are but many by the same token are not. Many of the rich have wealth going back centuries to times which preceded capitalism. The wealthy, many of whom are capitalists, oppose progressive taxation. This does not imply that capitalism and progressive taxation are in conflict. Many people point to the post-war years in the US when progressive taxation was very, um, progressive and the economy was booming. As taxation has become less progressive over the years inequality has skyrocketed and investment in infrastructure has tanked which actually works against the interests of the capitalists. So, properly speaking capitalism and progressive taxation make great bedfellows, but the rich don't like it because they like all of us are self-interested and greedy.

Re: A letter to Steven Pinker about global poverty

#239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Capitalism is not the problem. The excesses of capitalism are. For example: we've known this since biblical times. Money is not the root of all evil, the love of money is. Money is not evil in and of itself. Money is a tool. Like a hammer, money can be wielded in bad ways or good. You can build a house or bash someone's skull in. Because you can bash someone's head in with a hammer does that make hammers bad? Private…

But that doesn't cross with free market types, to them the government should have little to no role in capitalism. Those that seized private property with their accumulated wealth don't choose to part with it, (because how much is enough to them? sometimes never) then that requires either the government to seize private property or have incredibly high tax brackets (if they aren't exploiting intentional loopholes) th…

Fun fact: a free market means a fair market, correct? No barriers to trade and all that. What is one barrier to trade? Monopolies and cartels. Who is going to break up monopolies if not the government? If company X is going to make its widget cheaper than company Y by driving down its workers wages to starvation levels then who will stop them if not some strong outside entity? Bad actors will distort free markets, the government therefore has an essential role in keeping those markets free.

Free market types who are anti government intervention and regulation are ideologues and I have no time for ideologues. I have no time for the rabid pro-capitalists, but neither do I have any time for the rabid anti-capitalist. Both are blinded by ideology. They are the enemy.

Enlightened philanthropy is a great thing. But I totally agree with you, I sure as hell wouldn't want to run all public services using that model.

Re: A letter to Steven Pinker about global poverty

#240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The post war countries you mention had access to massive investment from the US, e.g. the Marshall plan. It's no surprise they're doing well. In contrast, the post-colonial developing countries today were hit with extremely predatory debt by the IMF - as a form of "international aid" - so it's no surprise they are not as wealthy. Some of these places were also very developed prior to colonialism and could have "snapp…

You've contradicted yourself in your own statement. You can't have 'not enough investment' and then 'debt trap' (i.e. taking on too much debt) at the same time. Which is it? They can't access debt? Or they're taking on too much, so much they can't service it? Countries usually wantonly and willingly approach the IMF/WB for loans - not the other way around. The reason is because they can get better terms than anyone e…

IMF debt trap for developing countries during the is well documented. Till the 90s, there were very high interest rates. So yes, they could access debt, but it was impossible to repay. The nature of the lending has become less exploitative in recent years but not necessarily long enough for these places to recover.

Sure, there are cases where corrupt leaders have embezzled the funds. However, it was also a practice that governments be given funds only on condition of structuring their economies in ways that benefit western investors over the local population. So their "dysfunctionality" was not always a choice - not democratically anyway. There are also cases where corrupt leadership was put into power in developing countries by Western forces, after compromising democratically elected regimes, e.g. by the CIA in Panama, Chile, or Iran.

If former colonies had been offered the kinds of reparations and assistance that say the people founding the state of Israel got, then it seems reasonable to think that these places could be doing very well like Israel is doing now. But places like say Haiti were completely ruined with debt from damages they were forced to repay after their independence struggle, to make an example of them and discourage other liberation efforts. And they have never been given the chance to negotiate on equal terms since.

I think there is plenty of evidence for a story where there was an abuse of Western geopolitical influence in these places. There is lots of productive gain to be made in these places. It just happens to largely go to the West, rather than to the people living there. In Africa, on average, more money leaves the continent in the form of repatriation of profits by multinationals than was invested/lent that year [1]. So the modern version of colonialism is still an effective form of wealth extraction. This is not to mention the nasty tactics that such companies have been found to use in order to maintain this kind of profiteering, such as by funding rebel militias in civil wars to keep control of valuable resource extraction sites [2].

It's terrible how we are led to blame the people in these countries and resign them to what could be pretty horrible fates, when there are far more powerful and sinister actors that are on "our side" who are usually holding more of the blame.

[1] https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2017/may/24/w...

[2] https://projects.icij.org/fatalextraction/

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