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Ask HN: How you ever quit because the engineering culture is too messed up?
21–24 of 24 posts
Re: Ask HN: How you ever quit because the engineering culture is too messed up?
#22This can be frustrating for sure. Your question / post is a little light on details, so I am reading between the lines a bit here, but to some extent you'll find this everywhere, and dealing with it can be a useful skill. Can you provide a few more details on what you mean by "management infrastructure"? Are we talking source control / build systems / JIRA workflow stuff here? I would suggest trying to find ways to b…
There's a certain disdain for metrics so we're not tracking a lot of things proactively (think latency/rate, for example). That means every new change is based on a feeling of how it'll impact the systems. We also don't have a dev/test environment so changes to production are what I'd call, "faith based". There's a lot of apply to production, revert cycles. Or worse: no changes at all for fear of breaking things. But…
Honestly it’s disingenuous for people to suggest that one person (in this case, you) can somehow fix everything by “leading by example”. That’s first and foremost a management job. So first you need to decide whether you have management support for the changes you’d like to see.
Start by examining the behaviors and outcomes your managers currently reward. This will tell you their true priorities.
Next, determine if management is rewarding those behaviors because that’s the best way they know (ignorance) or other reasons, e.g. politics, don’t care, empire building, etc. Ignorance is potentially fixable, anything else is a sign you won’t be successful.
If you’ve found that management is simply ignorant, see if they’re open to learning new things. If not, you’ll find yourself preaching to the deaf. Find another job.
Also be aware that survivor bias means that your coworkers are well adapted to the status quo. They will likely resist changes as well. See if you have any allies amongst the troops. If not, leave.
I know that this advice is heavily biased against staying, but with good reason: Cultural change is extremely difficult, and even CEOs, who theoretically have the most power to make changes, often fail at it. Better to find a culture that’s ready for the change you want to help with, rather than to stay in one that doesn’t.
Good luck!
Re: Ask HN: How you ever quit because the engineering culture is too messed up?
#23Yes, I have done this. Mostly because my work depended on certain technical architecture being setup but there was an unwillingness by management to do so. This was primarily because other people at the company refused to admit they didn’t have the expertise to set it up and instead did their best to cause my project to drag for months. I eventually left and completed a project that dragged for over 2 years in less t…
That's exactly one of the problems that I have. Somehow people are okay with things taking 2 years rather than 3 months though so there isn't a lot of pressure to change. I'm at a point where I don't know if sticking around can have a positive influence on my career, maybe I'll learn to be more zen? How will that help if I change jobs? Or, will I become used to bad engineering and sabotage myself in the future? These…
I think being zen is important for dealing with interpersonal situations however I think it is a mistake to be too accepting of the status quo when it comes to getting things done. Your time is valuable.
What has worked for me in the past is to find people that are able to force changes to the product (typically project or product managers, or someone else that represents the client) and find out what they need, then focus on producing something for them that gets them further down the path they are taking the product or company. These can be small things or big things, if you can help them create progress then you have a valuable advocate moving forward.
If there is no way to do that within the current engineering processes at your company then consider working outside those processes, and if that is not possible then you should look for opportunities at other organizations.
Re: Ask HN: How you ever quit because the engineering culture is too messed up?
#24How long have you been there? If you're brand new, then just be quiet and listen for 6 months. Find out why they do things the way they do. They often have, if not totally valid reasons, at least reasons that are more valid than they seem at first glance. If you don't know their reasons, and you're telling them that they should do it differently, then of course the aren't listening to you. But if you've been there fo…
Worst advice ever. The time will pass regardless of your waiting, so everything you could see in 6 months you'll see. But while the time passes you can do something. As you stay quiet and watch you accumulate negative momentum and estabilish the narrative of a passive teammate. It is difficult to start anew in the environment you've been in for a while. Difficult to challenge solidifed perceptions.
Wreak havoc from the very beginning but with tact. Never insulting anybody, always carrying positive energy. This way you'll get the reputation of a go getter, an executioner, and will become the proactive force.
> If you don't know their reasons, and you're telling them that they should do it differently, then of course the aren't listening to you.
Do not accept this. Just because they have valid reasons doesn't mean your way is wrong, worse, and not worth it. They have valid excuses for everything, that's the way of the world. In any case there is always something to improve from day 0.
That's my way of thinking. My experience is limited though.