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A letter to Steven Pinker about global poverty

jasonhickel.org

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Re: A letter to Steven Pinker about global poverty

#111

TLDR; When the numbers don't fit the narrative, you need to pick out different numbers. " Here are a few points to keep in mind. Using the $1.90 line shows that only 700 million people live in poverty." It shows that "only" 700 million people live in extreme poverty as defined by the World Bank. " If $1.90 is inadequate to achieve basic nutrition and sustain normal human activity, then it’s too low – period. " Yeah,…

Wait a minute, how does that go one way but not the other? Why is using $7.4 "doctoring the data" to fit your narrative but $1.9 not? The author uses arguments such as > The USDA states that about $6.7/day is necessary for achieving basic nutrition. Peter Edwards argues that people need about $7.40 if they are to achieve normal human life expectancy. The New Economics Foundation concludes that around $8 is necessary…

I didn't say anyone is doctoring data. The data may well be true, but it may not fit your narrative. If your narrative is "people are getting poorer" you need to set the bar high, if your narrative is "people are getting richer", you need to set the bar low. In that sense it goes both ways.

However, the difference between outright starving to death, being extremely poor and simply "being poor" is staggering. You wouldn't argue that a million people saved from starvation looks "rather drab when considering that the average poor person still can't afford to drive a car".

You may say "1.90$ is ridiculous", but hundreds of millions of people actually do have to live on that. It's not like it's a fantasy number that nobody actually lives off.

Re: A letter to Steven Pinker about global poverty

#112

Can anyone summarize what is going on here? It seems like a flamewar with graphs, and not interesting enough to invest the time in reading.

This is Jason Hickel's rebuttal to Steven Pinker's response [0] to Hickel's letter in the Guardian [1]. Pinker advocates that the quality of life for people is, on average, getting better worldwide. Hickel's responses are a little subtle but here's my interpretation:

    1. Hickel argues that Pinker's $1.7/day poverty
       line is too low to be used effectively as a
       standard of poverty and proposed a $7.4/day rate

    2. Excluding China from the period of 1981 to 2000 and
       using $7.4/day as a measure of the poverty line,
       the global poverty rate actually increased (from 62%
       to 68%) presumably because of exclusionary policies
       from the IMF

    3. Hickel argues that Pinker is a a capitalist and neo-liberal
       "apologist" and that Pinker is providing a more optimistic picture
       of reality than is warranted (and presumably things could be
       getting better faster with more realistic appraisals of the
       world state)

    4. The measure of success for poverty reduction should be our
       global ability to reduce poverty from our wealth rather than 
       absolute or relative numbers of poverty reduction
The point about the poverty increase from excluding China from 1981 to 2000 (point 2 above) is that this interpretation of data shows that poverty is not monotonically decreasing and that policy has drastic impacts on the rate of poverty reduction. I believe Hickel is arguing that pro capitalist or pro neo-liberal sentiment hides bad policy decisions, also presumably made with a pro capitalist or pretending to be done with a pro neo-liberal sentiment (IMF).

I think Pinker provides compelling evidence but I appreciate counter arguments like Hickel's as it provides a fuller picture of some finer points that might get lost. The IMF excluding the global south is information I hadn't known before and I imagine has drastic implications for the rate of poverty reduction worldwide. I think Hickel falls into the trap of reducing Pinker to a neo-liberal cheerleader when Pinker is trying to convey some very basic information but I also haven't read any of Pinker's books so the critique might be valid.

[0] https://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2019/01/31/is-the-w...

[1] https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jan/29/bill-g...

Re: A letter to Steven Pinker about global poverty

#113
post #35
post #13

One of the most amazing things I learned reading the excellent "Factfullness" by Hans Rosling [1] is that the poorest countries in the world are currently improving faster than any country ever did, at any point in history. That's correct - countries like Lesotho and Central African Republic are improving faster than his home country of Sweden ever did, at any time. In only his lifetime Sweden went from having an inf…

Yet you fail to mention the thousands of deaths every month from Al Shabab and the genocides and famines that have happened repeatedly throught the continent. Putting lipstick on a pig, it's still a pig. China and India can pour all the money they want into various countries' infrastructure, it can all come tumbling down with the next disputed election or sectarian genocide.

How bad is Al Shabab compared to obesity and car accidenty? (Or other luxury deaths/ills)

> can all come tumbling down with the next disputed election or sectarian genocide.

Will it though? I mean sure it might look like that, but the US just had a Gov shutdown, whereas India and China had none in the previous decades. [Even if the US system is better IMHO.] (Of course there is an index for that: https://www.theglobaleconomy.com/India/wb_political_stabilit... and let's say vs Syria https://www.theglobaleconomy.com/Syria/wb_political_stabilit... )

Re: A letter to Steven Pinker about global poverty

#114
post #13

One of the most amazing things I learned reading the excellent "Factfullness" by Hans Rosling [1] is that the poorest countries in the world are currently improving faster than any country ever did, at any point in history. That's correct - countries like Lesotho and Central African Republic are improving faster than his home country of Sweden ever did, at any time. In only his lifetime Sweden went from having an inf…

Enlightenment Now was easily Pinker's worst book. It took the counter-intuitive theme ("hey, things are not so bad when you look at the data") of Better Angels of Our Nature – which is a great book – and ran with it. Enlightenment Now is really two books: the first part deals with (chapter by chapter) a successive list of indicators of human progress. It's second part deals with the philosophical reasons behind human progress, what collectively are called enlightenment ideals.

Let's put to one side the second part of the book which is some of the worst material Pinker has put down on paper – not in terms of style of course, he writes like an angel, but in terms of philosophical content.

What struck me about the first part was where he deals with inequality. It is demonstrably true using Pinker's own metrics and datasets that economic progress is not distributed evenly. To put it very simply the data shows that the middle class is becoming hollowed out in the developed world. Where is that wealth flowing to? The rich in the developed world and the poor in the developing world. The argument goes like this: because the number of very poor and poor that are being lifted out of poverty in the developing world outnumbers the middle class that are losing their wealth in the developed world, then the current system is great because smaller overall numbers are better. QED.

You can attack this position from two angles. First, as Jason Hickel does by saying that the way poverty has been and is being measured is broken in some way. Second, in a way that is more compelling which is this: that the global and regional and national growth in wealth ought to be more evenly distributed. The current distribution is fundamentally and deliberately skewed. That would be the tack I would take. I would say, why do there have to be losers?

And isn't this what Brexit in the UK, the Yellow Vests in France, and the election of Trump in the US demonstrate? It shows that many feel squeezed and left behind. This was the first time I felt like saying to Pinker, "Well, look at you, a successful author in a developed country – do you not care about how your average countryman is doing?" Extreme and rising inequality is bad in and of itself. We know this because historically and in the present day when societies are more equal the knock on effects are felt in every sector of society. There's a reason people point to the Nordic model, they're not pulling this stuff out of their butts you know.

To Hickel's argument I would say this. Pinker is correct that where one draws the line of absolute poverty is irrelevant because the data shows that no matter where one draws the line (at that level of things) the numbers show poverty (at the global level, for the poorest of the poor) is decreasing. I think Hickel is correct in pointing out that all rich countries have protected their economies and continue to protect their domestic economies, Hickel lists a number of authors who pointed this out to which I would add How Rich Countries Got Rich and Why Poor Countries Stay Poor by Erik S Reinert. But that doesn't refute the data, it just refutes Pinker's ideology.

People like Hickel are basically anti-capitalist which for me is a non-starter. I'm opened to being proved otherwise. Don't get me wrong: crony capitalism can be critiqued, as can the excesses of capitalism – but I think people like Hickel would criticise capitalism itself which as I say for me doesn't fly. On the other hand people like Pinker either don't see or choose to downplay the ills of neoliberal globalist unfettered capitalism.

What bugs me about Hickel's take is that it feels like he's suggesting we can either have capitalism or public education, that we can have capitalism or public health programs. And so on. I don't think Pinker would be against such systems. All the most successful nations show that capitalism and some socialist policy can work hand-in-hand very well indeed. This is the debate we need to have I think, and urgently before skyrocketing inequality leads to violent social unrest and God knows who'll get into power then and God knows what cuckoo ideology they'll have. The wealthy have rigged the system in their favour. By the wealthy I mean, wealthy individual humans and wealthy corporations. We've allowed it to happen and now it must be addressed.

People like Hickel are awful. They rail against everything, scream that we're destroying the Earth (hint: we're not), and their proposed solutions are either socialist programs mostly _everybody_ agrees with and are implemented in _most_ nations or anti-growth solutions which are in a word 'bonkers'. Be very suspicious of people who say we're doing nothing right and who have a fundamentally pessimist view about humanity's growth.

Re: A letter to Steven Pinker about global poverty

#115
post #50
post #13

One of the most amazing things I learned reading the excellent "Factfullness" by Hans Rosling [1] is that the poorest countries in the world are currently improving faster than any country ever did, at any point in history. That's correct - countries like Lesotho and Central African Republic are improving faster than his home country of Sweden ever did, at any time. In only his lifetime Sweden went from having an inf…

> so in just one more lifetime they'll be where the world leaders are today. You are extrapolating the current rate, but doing that is dangerous: https://xkcd.com/605/

No. Not true. Nobody does that. Economists are well aware that as countries develop the rate at which they progress slows.

Re: A letter to Steven Pinker about global poverty

#116
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a story of competing narratives. Pinker says the world is improving by most measures, and this is a credit to our global system (though of course there is always room for improvement). Many people, including Jason Hickel, strongly object to Pinker's characterization. They think the global system is fundamentally broken and flawed and we should be ashamed for letting it happen. Ultimately it's a capitalism vs.…

I wonder why no one includes other metrics like being happy with life and having a dignified job. Metrics that are important and overlooked. Well, I have a job, but I have to slaughter animals for it, is something I would consider here too.

Probably because those things are much harder to quantify or are depending on cultural factors that make difficult to establish a comparison.

Re: A letter to Steven Pinker about global poverty

#117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, that's only a very small part of his rebuttal, dealing specifically with the period prior to 1970, as well as the fact that GDP estimates for this period "take little if any account of the goods and resources that people may have acquired from their land, from trees, from forests, from rivers and the sea, and in the form of gifts from relatives." From 1981 onward, I would summarize his argument as being t…

> - While some measures have improved, the picture is no where near as good as it is represented. Name a measure of human suffering that has not improved. Healthy lifespan, deaths in childbirth, infant mortality, they’ve all gotten better. > - Using $1.90 as the baseline to beat is too low for what we would consider as being out of poverty. The trend is the same regardless of which poverty line you pick. Poverty is d…

Protectionism does work, every rich country protected its domestic production until it was able to compete on a global level.

Doing otherwise would just result in the internal industry being bought out for pennies or being obliterated by advanced competitors.

Protectionism doesn't guarantee that a country will be successful at building cars, but they should at least bloody try to before giving up.

And yes, capitalism can improve a country's fortunes if applied judiciously. Merely opening the markets to a free for all wil just result in the vultures swooping in, getting rich and leaving some rests for the locals.

Re: A letter to Steven Pinker about global poverty

#119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair Pinker wrote that in a private mail. When you criticize this, then also let's not forget what on the other hand Hinkel wrote in his article published in the Guardian newspaper: > It is madness – and no amount of mansplaining from billionaires will be adequate to justify it. We can certainly discuss about the data and how to interpret it, but using such phrases in a newspaper-article isn't really helpful ei…

> wrote in his article published in the Guardian newspaper: [mansplaining] ...I mean, Hinkel's a dude too and should perhaps avoid the term, but these are men spouting nonsense and telling off more expertised people, so it's not too far off.

It's drawing unnecessary attention to the sex of the human over the content of the argument. The way people casually (and self deprecatingly) throw it into conversation seems like a cheap way to win points with those who share a certain ideology, not a logical argument.

Re: A letter to Steven Pinker about global poverty

#120
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yet you fail to mention the thousands of deaths every month from Al Shabab and the genocides and famines that have happened repeatedly throught the continent. Putting lipstick on a pig, it's still a pig. China and India can pour all the money they want into various countries' infrastructure, it can all come tumbling down with the next disputed election or sectarian genocide.

People who say stuff like this forget that Europe nearly destroyed itself through war twice in just the last hundred years— and followed it up with an arms race that put the entire planet at risk of extinction. It was only the threat of nuclear annihilation that stopped Europeans from murdering each other on an industrial scale.

You are badly mixing up sides in nuclear race a bit, we europeans were bystanders compared to US-Russia race and never really caught up with neither of them.
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