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A letter to Steven Pinker about global poverty

jasonhickel.org

41–50 of 254 posts

Re: A letter to Steven Pinker about global poverty

#41
post #9

Hickels rebuttal in the letter is that GDP cannot be used to gauge poverty which he claims has only been measured directly by the UN since 1981. But if you look around the world today, GDP/head is a remarkaby strong indicator of the level of poverty in a country. Nevermind that all the other quality of life stats: life expectency, child morality, average working hours, literacy, education levels, food affordability s…

To be fair, that's only a very small part of his rebuttal, dealing specifically with the period prior to 1970, as well as the fact that GDP estimates for this period "take little if any account of the goods and resources that people may have acquired from their land, from trees, from forests, from rivers and the sea, and in the form of gifts from relatives." From 1981 onward, I would summarize his argument as being t…

> - While some measures have improved, the picture is no where near as good as it is represented.

Name a measure of human suffering that has not improved. Healthy lifespan, deaths in childbirth, infant mortality, they’ve all gotten better.

> - Using $1.90 as the baseline to beat is too low for what we would consider as being out of poverty.

The trend is the same regardless of which poverty line you pick. Poverty is decreasing, education, literacy and health are rising.

> - Most economic successes have not been due to neoliberal markets but rather state-led industrial policy, protectionism and regulation.

Indeed, in every state where they’ve followed an industrial policy of “Let’s do capitalism.” poverty has decreased, whether with heavy handed government economic intervention like Japan or Korea or just leaving business alone like Hong Kong. If protectionism worked Argentina would have a car industry. They tried for 30 years. It doesn’t.

> - Most quality of life improvements have not been due to neoliberal globalization but simple public interventions including free healthcare and education.

The UN’s human development index is 70% explained by GDP per capita. Poor countries can’t afford good policy and capitalism is the proven way to escape poverty.

> - Progress is slowing relative to the resources available to tackle the problem.

As far as absolute poverty goes, maybe, kind of. The countries that have shown no real improvement are the ones with no real government or state capacity. Everywhere else is in the process of escaping absolute poverty or has done so. These are the countries that do not work, mostly in Africa. We just have to work towards integrating them into the global economy so they can grow. One hopes the nearby example of Ethiopia, Ghana, South Africa or Nigeria will help, as they grow their way out of poverty.

Re: A letter to Steven Pinker about global poverty

#42

> Real data on poverty has only been collected since 1981, by the World Bank. Perhaps we didn't collect data on poverty globally before that, but we most certainly collected data on poverty before that regionally.

This is the oddest argument in the article, I think. No one claims the data are perfect or identical before 1981, but it’s what we have and it’s used. I think it’s acceptable to provide an alternate proxy. Or to critique the methods rigorously. But it is frustrating when a rhetorical trick is used to point out how the pre-1981 data are different than 1981, that is known by anyone reading Pinker, and then throw out all pre-1981 data and claim it is meaningless. And even more strangely, that poverty during this period is just unknowable.

I would think that the best way to critique this is to develop some other method of proxying poverty rate that doesn’t show drops. Later in the article, the author shows this with the $7.90 poverty rate, but only from 1981.

Re: A letter to Steven Pinker about global poverty

#44
post #17
post #13

One of the most amazing things I learned reading the excellent "Factfullness" by Hans Rosling [1] is that the poorest countries in the world are currently improving faster than any country ever did, at any point in history. That's correct - countries like Lesotho and Central African Republic are improving faster than his home country of Sweden ever did, at any time. In only his lifetime Sweden went from having an inf…

> so in just one more lifetime they'll be where the world leaders are today. This is where you are probably wrong and which so often is used in the narrative of "things are getting better". You make an implicit assumption that this development will go on. It probably won't. The reason is climate change.

"The reason is climate change."

The reason isn't climate change.

The Central African Republic has just come out of a civil war. Of course things are going to improve rapidly, because that farmer that was in a refugee camp can now go home and grow enough to barely feed his family.

You can't extrapolate that out to the CAR overtaking first world countries in a generation simply because that farmer hasn't been educated to do the jobs that the economy would require, neither probably will his children.

That's before getting into things like infrastructure, rule of law, etc, etc, etc.

Edit: To clarify, I don't disagree that climate change will probably hurt the poorest countries disproportionately though.

Re: A letter to Steven Pinker about global poverty

#46
post #16
post #13

One of the most amazing things I learned reading the excellent "Factfullness" by Hans Rosling [1] is that the poorest countries in the world are currently improving faster than any country ever did, at any point in history. That's correct - countries like Lesotho and Central African Republic are improving faster than his home country of Sweden ever did, at any time. In only his lifetime Sweden went from having an inf…

I read the Factfullness book, and I thought it's really poorly argued. I remember my BP was through the roof on the plane when I was reading that. HR is not believable imo. (I work in data, I'm a physicist.)

Rosner, Pinker and Co fell into the same trap they critiqued others - belief in destiny. They try to counter pessimistic destiny narratives with positive destiny narratives and selecting data that fits the narrative.

You can't extrapolation the future from current trends. There are discontinuities and challenges that can change the dynamics.

Re: A letter to Steven Pinker about global poverty

#47
> *We can end poverty right now simply by making the rules of our global economy fairer for the world’s majority (I describe how we can do this in The Divide, looking at everything from wages to debt to trade).

Well, that's a pretty bold claim. Anybody have a TL;DR that doesn't require forking out 5 days of UN poverty-line income to read?

Re: A letter to Steven Pinker about global poverty

#48
post #16
post #13

One of the most amazing things I learned reading the excellent "Factfullness" by Hans Rosling [1] is that the poorest countries in the world are currently improving faster than any country ever did, at any point in history. That's correct - countries like Lesotho and Central African Republic are improving faster than his home country of Sweden ever did, at any time. In only his lifetime Sweden went from having an inf…

I read the Factfullness book, and I thought it's really poorly argued. I remember my BP was through the roof on the plane when I was reading that. HR is not believable imo. (I work in data, I'm a physicist.)

BP ? HR ?

Re: A letter to Steven Pinker about global poverty

#49
England, what's with the clown show you've got going on at your unis? First the naked Brexit lady now this guy.

1) subsistence agrarian lifestyles were not better than our industrialized world. If Mr Hickel disagrees, he should lay down the pen and pick up the plow.

2) decreased child mortality and increased lifespans (thanks industrialized medicine!) means more people alive but not necessarily economically useful => lower GDP/head. Stop having babies you can't afford. This leads to a longer debate about the issues with food aid both raising subsistence levels and pricing out local farmers.

3) China, Singapore, Vietnam, etc saw huge improvement because they went balls to the walls with the forced industrialization this quack said was the problem.

4) Income inequality increasing doesn't matter because the the entry price for modern technology is decreasing faster than income inequality is increasing.

This guy's a keyboard warrior who's never been in the field and shouldn't have cost my 5 minutes to read.

Re: A letter to Steven Pinker about global poverty

#50
post #13

One of the most amazing things I learned reading the excellent "Factfullness" by Hans Rosling [1] is that the poorest countries in the world are currently improving faster than any country ever did, at any point in history. That's correct - countries like Lesotho and Central African Republic are improving faster than his home country of Sweden ever did, at any time. In only his lifetime Sweden went from having an inf…

> so in just one more lifetime they'll be where the world leaders are today.

You are extrapolating the current rate, but doing that is dangerous:

https://xkcd.com/605/

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