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Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

businessinsider.com

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Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#151

Post by int_19h »

romwell wrote: post #122

There's a lot of discussion here, but I don't see the important question being asked: How (and whether) the removal of this app will help the women in Saudi Arabia: 1)In the short term 2)In the long term I.e. if the alternative to using the tracking app is not being able to travel (in the realities of that horrible state), then removal will make life of many women worse in the short term. Calls for bans and removals…

The logic here is very, very simple:

You don't help bad people do bad things. Period. End of discussion.

If they still do it without your help, that's unfortunate; and yes, you should probably do something to stop it. But if they do it with your help, then you are directly responsible for it, and the rest of us have a moral obligation to hold you responsible.

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#152

Post by terminus »

xyzzy123 wrote: post #102

I am surprised that no-one has brought up a neutrality argument yet. The app is legal within Saudi Arabia and in fact published by their government. Are we to take down any app which violates anyone’s morals? Or just the morals of particular countries? If an app is blasphemous by the standards of say Mormonism or Islam, should we take it down? After everyone is done, how many apps will be left? If we enforce some mor…

> If we enforce some morals and not others in our app stores, who exactly do we choose as the arbiters of morality? U.S. public opinion? Chinese public opinion? Maybe the U.N?

I agree that not every situation is this easy to decide but this one -- women as chattel -- seems rather staightforward.

Corporations claim free speech rights (via corporate personhood) all the time. Not using those rights in this case seems to be quite a statement.

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#153

Post by int_19h »

m0dest wrote: post #79

A pragmatic view: 70% of the mobile devices in Saudi Arabia run Android. Outcome 1- Apple bans Absher but Google does not. Absher usage continues. Android gains market share over time. Outcome 2- Apple and Google both ban Absher. Android users install it via sideload from the government website. Carriers preload the sideloaded Absher app onto new phones. Absher usage continues. Android market share grows over time. I…

Let me rephrase that. Saudis will still make it work, so why care?

By the same logic, it's okay help someone kill a man, if you know they'll succeed in doing that anyway, with or without your help.

But that's not how it works.

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#154

Post by int_19h »

pault wrote: post #20
Crosseye_Jack wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s basically up to the person running passport control that day but first of all they also need their other travel documents like their passport if they are flying internationally. They are often not allowed access to them (Not denied access in any legal sense, but their families will “look after” the documents making it hard to gain access to such documents). But if it’s the case of a foreign national returning ho…

Holy shit, I can't believe this is happening in the 21st century.

This is a country that literally crucifies, beheads, and stones people to death as a form of judicially sanctioned execution. A country where sorcery is a crime on the books (actively enforced, too), and atheists are officially designated to be terrorists.

This is a country that simply should not exist.

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#155

Post by ulfw »

xyzzy123 wrote: post #102

I am surprised that no-one has brought up a neutrality argument yet. The app is legal within Saudi Arabia and in fact published by their government. Are we to take down any app which violates anyone’s morals? Or just the morals of particular countries? If an app is blasphemous by the standards of say Mormonism or Islam, should we take it down? After everyone is done, how many apps will be left? If we enforce some mor…

> Are we to take down any app which violates anyone’s morals?

Yet all adult apps are banned, just because as US companies morals when it comes to sexual content are just very Disneyesque in that country. Even for 18+ year olds.

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#156

Post by travmatt »

int_19h wrote: post #144
NoblePublius wrote: post #23

I can’t believe that Lyft doesn’t cover the Bay Area with billboards that say “Saudi Arabia beats women and owns 10% of Uber.” “Saudi Arabia murders gay people and owns 10% of Uber.” “Saudi Arabia crucified two people last year and owns 10% of Uber.”

What we really need with respect to Saudi Arabia is a popular campaign similar to the one that was directed at South Africa in 1980s. Boycott everything they have a stake in. Push your government to embargo everything they buy or sell. They're in a much weaker position than SAR, too, in terms of what they need to import, so it'd be much more effective.

They’re still the predominant player in the world oil markets, and the leader of OPEC. Oil is too deeply ingrained in the modern economy to seriously consider boycotting them, and even if possible, the resulting economic shock from a successful boycott would be severe.

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#157

Post by sschueller »

xyzzy123 wrote: post #102

I am surprised that no-one has brought up a neutrality argument yet. The app is legal within Saudi Arabia and in fact published by their government. Are we to take down any app which violates anyone’s morals? Or just the morals of particular countries? If an app is blasphemous by the standards of say Mormonism or Islam, should we take it down? After everyone is done, how many apps will be left? If we enforce some mor…

Pornographie is legal in the US, yet you won't find any of those apps in the app stores.

Either you are neutral or you take full responsibility of what you offer in your walled garden. You can't have it both ways.

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#158

Post by stickfigure »

xyzzy123 wrote: post #102

I am surprised that no-one has brought up a neutrality argument yet. The app is legal within Saudi Arabia and in fact published by their government. Are we to take down any app which violates anyone’s morals? Or just the morals of particular countries? If an app is blasphemous by the standards of say Mormonism or Islam, should we take it down? After everyone is done, how many apps will be left? If we enforce some mor…

Serious question: Would you be willing to make this same argument for a (hypothetical) Apartheid-era app that enabled whites to manage blacks?

I think it's pretty reasonable for the court of modern political opinion to pass judgement on the more egregious examples of injustice in the world. Yes, morality is relative, but there's a strong majority opinion on this - especially in the countries that build the technology platforms we're talking about.

Apple & Google should yank the apps, and we should hold their feet to the fire until they do.

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#159

Post by [deleted] »

realusername wrote: post #120
xyzzy123 wrote: post #102

I am surprised that no-one has brought up a neutrality argument yet. The app is legal within Saudi Arabia and in fact published by their government. Are we to take down any app which violates anyone’s morals? Or just the morals of particular countries? If an app is blasphemous by the standards of say Mormonism or Islam, should we take it down? After everyone is done, how many apps will be left? If we enforce some mor…

> Are we to take down any app which violates anyone’s morals? Or just the morals of particular countries? If an app is blasphemous by the standards of say Mormonism or Islam, should we take it down? After everyone is done, how many apps will be left? Since Apple & Google created a walled garden, any damage the apps can do fall into their responsibility. If they wanted to avoid this responsibility, they should have cr…

[deleted]

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#160

Post by int_19h »

travmatt wrote: post #156
int_19h wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What we really need with respect to Saudi Arabia is a popular campaign similar to the one that was directed at South Africa in 1980s. Boycott everything they have a stake in. Push your government to embargo everything they buy or sell. They're in a much weaker position than SAR, too, in terms of what they need to import, so it'd be much more effective.

They’re still the predominant player in the world oil markets, and the leader of OPEC. Oil is too deeply ingrained in the modern economy to seriously consider boycotting them, and even if possible, the resulting economic shock from a successful boycott would be severe.

It is wrong to put temptation in the path of any nation,

For fear they should succumb and go astray;

So when you are requested to pay up or be molested,

You will find it better policy to say: –

"We never pay any-one Dane-geld,

No matter how trifling the cost;

For the end of that game is oppression and shame,

And the nation that plays it is lost!"

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