Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#141

Post by mda » Tue, Feb 12, 2019, 6:52 AM UTC

OpieCunningham wrote: post #127

xyzzy123 wrote: post #102

I am surprised that no-one has brought up a neutrality argument yet. The app is legal within Saudi Arabia and in fact published by their government. Are we to take down any app which violates anyone’s morals? Or just the morals of particular countries? If an app is blasphemous by the standards of say Mormonism or Islam, should we take it down? After everyone is done, how many apps will be left? If we enforce some mor…

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights is probably a good place to start. https://www.un.org/en/universal-declaration-human-rights/ind...

There are so many things that are iffy but do not violate these.

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#142

Post by killjoywashere » Tue, Feb 12, 2019, 6:55 AM UTC

xyzzy123 wrote: post #102

I am surprised that no-one has brought up a neutrality argument yet. The app is legal within Saudi Arabia and in fact published by their government. Are we to take down any app which violates anyone’s morals? Or just the morals of particular countries? If an app is blasphemous by the standards of say Mormonism or Islam, should we take it down? After everyone is done, how many apps will be left? If we enforce some mor…

Google shut down support for Project Maven, which was just running code in their cloud at retail prices. If you can impose your morality in a way that prevents the defense of the constitution of the country in which your company is incorporated, I don't see what the issue is with imposing your morality on a dictatorial foreign government.

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#143

Post by int_19h » Tue, Feb 12, 2019, 6:56 AM UTC

xyzzy123 wrote: post #102

I am surprised that no-one has brought up a neutrality argument yet. The app is legal within Saudi Arabia and in fact published by their government. Are we to take down any app which violates anyone’s morals? Or just the morals of particular countries? If an app is blasphemous by the standards of say Mormonism or Islam, should we take it down? After everyone is done, how many apps will be left? If we enforce some mor…

US public opinion. Why? Because Apple and Google are both American companies, and their respective stores are hosted in US.

If Saudis don't like it, they can roll their own, without our assistance, and without us profiting from any of it.

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#144

Post by int_19h » Tue, Feb 12, 2019, 7:01 AM UTC

NoblePublius wrote: post #23

I can’t believe that Lyft doesn’t cover the Bay Area with billboards that say “Saudi Arabia beats women and owns 10% of Uber.” “Saudi Arabia murders gay people and owns 10% of Uber.” “Saudi Arabia crucified two people last year and owns 10% of Uber.”

What we really need with respect to Saudi Arabia is a popular campaign similar to the one that was directed at South Africa in 1980s. Boycott everything they have a stake in. Push your government to embargo everything they buy or sell. They're in a much weaker position than SAR, too, in terms of what they need to import, so it'd be much more effective.

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#145

Post by schoen » Tue, Feb 12, 2019, 7:01 AM UTC

geofft wrote: post #109

xyzzy123 wrote: post #102

I am surprised that no-one has brought up a neutrality argument yet. The app is legal within Saudi Arabia and in fact published by their government. Are we to take down any app which violates anyone’s morals? Or just the morals of particular countries? If an app is blasphemous by the standards of say Mormonism or Islam, should we take it down? After everyone is done, how many apps will be left? If we enforce some mor…

Neutrality is a moral viewpoint in itself. It's the viewpoint that nobody is actually wrong, that simply by being a country you have a right to have your moral views respected. In the specific case of app stores, it's the viewpoint that everyone deserves to have the things they're doing made more efficient, and that helping anyone speed up their work is virtuous. (Neutrality, by the way, is IBM's present defense of D…

This seems like a significant distortion to me. Neutrality can mean that people who provide infrastructure and services may provide them to everyone without being considered to endorse particular uses or users. That doesn't mean that either the infrastructure or service providers or the advocates of neutrality literally believe or assert that "nobody is actually wrong".

From another angle, neutrality can mean that no one, or no entity of a certain type, should have or should exercise certain powers of judgement or discrimination. This also does not mean that nobody is wrong.

This is true across all sorts of situation in which many different entities refrain or are urged to refrain from making particular kinds of judgements or interventions, and there are lots of potentially powerful reasons for such restraint—quite a lot of them having to do with Schelling points that different people can (eagerly or grudgingly) agree on to stop conflicts or disagreements from escalating or infecting everything.

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#146

Post by int_19h » Tue, Feb 12, 2019, 7:02 AM UTC

rgbrenner wrote: post #27

They let you download the app... but they do NOT host the service. That's run by the Ministry of Interior. EDIT: I had a paragraph below this saying the laws were really the problem and would still exist without the app.. but I forgot one key point: how easy it was to subvert the system before the app existed. I've removed that section. I fully support removing the app from the app stores and forcing SA to go back to…

It doesn't matter if the system would still be in place - hosting the app is still aiding and abetting, and carries full ethical responsibility as such.

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#147

Post by slavak » Tue, Feb 12, 2019, 7:03 AM UTC

mda wrote: post #141

OpieCunningham wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights is probably a good place to start. https://www.un.org/en/universal-declaration-human-rights/ind...

There are so many things that are iffy but do not violate these.

That's not the target standard, that's a basic baseline. When you're worried about violating neutrality by denying service based on potentially subjective moral judgements, using at least the low bar of an almost-universally accepted set of rights is probably a good place to start.

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#148

Post by int_19h » Tue, Feb 12, 2019, 7:03 AM UTC

sandworm101 wrote: post #81

rdiddly wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kind of beside the point, too. The bigger news and greater surprise is that the Saudis have an app to track & apprehend women who try to leave! Like "What an outrage that Google hosts this " isn't quiiite what I was thinking...

In saudi arabia, women are property. This is no different than an app to track a stolen car or lost pet. Compared to all the stuff men are allowed to do to/with their women... this app is probably the least outrageous wrong. We need to get mad at the countries who support the real physical harms, those that enable abuse or at least do very little to prevent it.

> We need to get mad at the countries who support the real physical harms

So, Saudi Arabia?

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#149

Post by int_19h » Tue, Feb 12, 2019, 7:05 AM UTC

S_A_P wrote: post #55

I don’t agree with the kingdom of Saudi Arabia’s stances, but I also feel like keeping a list of each state that violates human rights is not in Tim Cook’s or Sundar Pichai’s job description. If we are just being honest with ourselves the list of countries in which you can do business approaches 0 if we call out the violators. Secondly, the last time I checked a company’s mandate is to abide by the laws of the countr…

Sure. So let's pass laws and slap some serious sanctions on KSA. If there is a country that deserves them, it's this one.

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#150

Post by JackPoach » Tue, Feb 12, 2019, 7:06 AM UTC

xyzzy123 wrote: post #102

I am surprised that no-one has brought up a neutrality argument yet. The app is legal within Saudi Arabia and in fact published by their government. Are we to take down any app which violates anyone’s morals? Or just the morals of particular countries? If an app is blasphemous by the standards of say Mormonism or Islam, should we take it down? After everyone is done, how many apps will be left? If we enforce some mor…

I agree. It's kind of pointless to demand from FB, Apple, Google, Amazon and other tech giants that they both don't interfere with freedom of speech and other freedoms and do promote various kinds of favorable social agendas at the same time. Also, KSA is backward as fuck, I just don't see how it's Google's fault that someone wants to live in the dark ages.