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Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

businessinsider.com

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Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#101

Post by m-p-3 »

m0dest wrote: post #79

A pragmatic view: 70% of the mobile devices in Saudi Arabia run Android. Outcome 1- Apple bans Absher but Google does not. Absher usage continues. Android gains market share over time. Outcome 2- Apple and Google both ban Absher. Android users install it via sideload from the government website. Carriers preload the sideloaded Absher app onto new phones. Absher usage continues. Android market share grows over time. I…

Outcome 3- Google ban Absher and automatically remove it from device using Google Play Protect on the basis that it's a spyware.

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#102

Post by xyzzy123 »

I am surprised that no-one has brought up a neutrality argument yet.

The app is legal within Saudi Arabia and in fact published by their government.

Are we to take down any app which violates anyone’s morals? Or just the morals of particular countries? If an app is blasphemous by the standards of say Mormonism or Islam, should we take it down? After everyone is done, how many apps will be left?

If we enforce some morals and not others in our app stores, who exactly do we choose as the arbiters of morality? U.S. public opinion? Chinese public opinion? Maybe the U.N?

Just to be clear I’d prefer this app not exist, and I would not be unhappy if it gets “unpublished”. I also think it would be cool if the major platforms just came out and made an unambiguous statement on what they will and won’t stand for.

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#103

Post by burtonator »

xyzzy123 wrote: post #102

I am surprised that no-one has brought up a neutrality argument yet. The app is legal within Saudi Arabia and in fact published by their government. Are we to take down any app which violates anyone’s morals? Or just the morals of particular countries? If an app is blasphemous by the standards of say Mormonism or Islam, should we take it down? After everyone is done, how many apps will be left? If we enforce some mor…

Instead of Hooli someone is going to launch Halali ... Cloud hosting according to the laws or the Koran.

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#104

Post by geofft »

joejerryronnie wrote: post #92
thatoneyouthrow wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a great idea. But outside of this would anyone be interested in meeting up at tech companies and protesting?

It’s interesting that we’re all terrified of big tech’s growing base of power over our lives, yet more and more we expect big tech to take care of problems that governments are typically responsible for.

Big tech is already very powerful, and there are very few feasible ways to stop that. But it is a bit more feasible to demand that big tech use its power in certain ways. They are already at the point where almost anything they do will have an impact with moral implications, the way that an elephant walking through a field is going to crush some flowers or grasses. (See, for instance, Twitter aiding the Arab Spring by basically just existing, Facebook aiding the Rohingya genocide by basically just existing, and WhatsApp enabling mob violence in India by basically just existing.)

So, we might as well demand that they step on the things we wish them to step on.

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#105

Post by AmericanChopper »

xyzzy123 wrote: post #102

I am surprised that no-one has brought up a neutrality argument yet. The app is legal within Saudi Arabia and in fact published by their government. Are we to take down any app which violates anyone’s morals? Or just the morals of particular countries? If an app is blasphemous by the standards of say Mormonism or Islam, should we take it down? After everyone is done, how many apps will be left? If we enforce some mor…

The internet I grew up with was a champion of free speech and exchange of ideas. No matter what they were. It’s very sad to see that it’s being taken over calls for censorship on so many different levels. I do find the nurtrality aspect to be very hypocritical though. The same communities that demand ISP infrastructure be kept neutral at all costs will often support content censorship in numerous other ways.

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#106

Post by walrus01 »

xyzzy123 wrote: post #102

I am surprised that no-one has brought up a neutrality argument yet. The app is legal within Saudi Arabia and in fact published by their government. Are we to take down any app which violates anyone’s morals? Or just the morals of particular countries? If an app is blasphemous by the standards of say Mormonism or Islam, should we take it down? After everyone is done, how many apps will be left? If we enforce some mor…

Counterpoint: Nobody owes the Saudis a publishing platform to push their app. If they want to fully self host it on servers within the geographical borders of the kingdom, they can. Good luck getting it to install on the majority of non-rooted iOS and Android devices.

I would encourage anyone running any 'cloud' based services for the Saudi government to discontinue serving them as soon as possible. This runs the gamut from basic DNS hosting, VM hosting (google/AWS/azure/whatever), email and managed service hosting (office365), everything.

They're welcome to have a go at fully self hosting everything for their own citizens on their own ISPs, inside the kingdom, with netblocks they don't advertise to BGP upstreams.

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#107

Post by joejerryronnie »

geofft wrote: post #104
joejerryronnie wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s interesting that we’re all terrified of big tech’s growing base of power over our lives, yet more and more we expect big tech to take care of problems that governments are typically responsible for.

Big tech is already very powerful, and there are very few feasible ways to stop that. But it is a bit more feasible to demand that big tech use its power in certain ways. They are already at the point where almost anything they do will have an impact with moral implications, the way that an elephant walking through a field is going to crush some flowers or grasses. (See, for instance, Twitter aiding the Arab Spring b…

This quickly leads to unintended consequences. What happens if a large group of people (perhaps wearing red hats with a four letter acroynym) decide they want big tech to step on a flower you hold dear?

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#108

Post by walrus01 »

m-p-3 wrote: post #101
m0dest wrote: post #79

A pragmatic view: 70% of the mobile devices in Saudi Arabia run Android. Outcome 1- Apple bans Absher but Google does not. Absher usage continues. Android gains market share over time. Outcome 2- Apple and Google both ban Absher. Android users install it via sideload from the government website. Carriers preload the sideloaded Absher app onto new phones. Absher usage continues. Android market share grows over time. I…

Outcome 3- Google ban Absher and automatically remove it from device using Google Play Protect on the basis that it's a spyware.

Outcome 4 - Saudi mobile phone carriers partner with Chinese device manufacturer to deploy custom built versions of Android with 'play protect' ripped out, and Absher app as a non-removable default install.

Basically think of what you could do if OnePlus went fully evil and built an 'evil' version of OxygenOS, their custom android variant.

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#109

Post by geofft »

xyzzy123 wrote: post #102

I am surprised that no-one has brought up a neutrality argument yet. The app is legal within Saudi Arabia and in fact published by their government. Are we to take down any app which violates anyone’s morals? Or just the morals of particular countries? If an app is blasphemous by the standards of say Mormonism or Islam, should we take it down? After everyone is done, how many apps will be left? If we enforce some mor…

Neutrality is a moral viewpoint in itself. It's the viewpoint that nobody is actually wrong, that simply by being a country you have a right to have your moral views respected. In the specific case of app stores, it's the viewpoint that everyone deserves to have the things they're doing made more efficient, and that helping anyone speed up their work is virtuous.

(Neutrality, by the way, is IBM's present defense of Dehomag's actions in World War II: there was a market opportunity in Germany, market opportunities are not inherently immoral, and by the time Germany's morality was beyond the pale, it was too late to say no. See https://www-03.ibm.com/press/us/en/pressrelease/1388.wss .)

And this isn't really neutrality, anyway. It's neutrality between the views of the powerful. The morality of Saudi Arabia is in scope; the morality of the Unabomber isn't. The morality of the LDS Church is in scope; the morality of Jews who object on religious grounds to the actions of the state of Israel isn't. The morality of China is in scope; the morality of non-authoritarian Communists isn't, because they lost all the Communist countries to authoritarians.

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#110

Post by alacombe »

xyzzy123 wrote: post #102

I am surprised that no-one has brought up a neutrality argument yet. The app is legal within Saudi Arabia and in fact published by their government. Are we to take down any app which violates anyone’s morals? Or just the morals of particular countries? If an app is blasphemous by the standards of say Mormonism or Islam, should we take it down? After everyone is done, how many apps will be left? If we enforce some mor…

True, but it can be difficult for public relation on one side to censor LEGAL speech you disagree with locally (here in the US), and yet accept worse conduct remote. Same argument about Google in China.

Though I guess it only make sense if you consider that both practice bring profits in.

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