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Feynman on Fermat's Last Theorem (2016)

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Re: Feynman on Fermat's Last Theorem (2016)

#41
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By Feynman's argument, you can prove that square numbers almost certainly keep on existing. Roughly, it goes as such: 1) the probability of N being a perfect square is proportional to 1/sqrt(N). 2) For any N_0 arbitrarily high, if you integrate from N_0 to infinity the expression (1/sqrt(N) dN), you get infinity. 3) The expression in 2) is the "Feynman equivalent" of the expected number of square numbers above N_0. S…

Okay, let's pick something rarer. Rational numbers. If you integrate the characteristic function of the rational numbers over any interval, you get zero because rational numbers are very rare. So they don't exist either? To be less glib, I don't see Feynmann's argument to be bringing anything new. We already knew that counterexamples, if they existed, would be very rare because we tried looking for them with computer…

The integral of the characteristic function is zero, but the probability of finding a rational in any interval is one. In Feynman’s argument, it seems he was relying on this latter probability.

So I don’t think you have produced a compelling counterexample yet (though I expect you are right that one exists).

Re: Feynman on Fermat's Last Theorem (2016)

#42
post #18
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The same trick works for higher powers. can you demonstrate?

Yes. x and y will be a multiple of the base number.

i don't get it, how do you go from difference of squares turning into sequence of odd numbers to absence of power of some integer?

Re: Feynman on Fermat's Last Theorem (2016)

#43

Previously discussed: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16041560 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14940636 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14355834 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12018221 ... and previously submitted without discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17581023 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15904199

Is the "past" link being deprecated or something?

Re: Feynman on Fermat's Last Theorem (2016)

#44

Is anyone still trying to come up with Fermat's original "truly marvelous proof"? Or have math folk talked themselves out of its possible existence?

Well, I'm not 'math folk' (grey beard programmer), but I love the Horizon documentary on Andrew Wiles and his solution, and I'd love to hear why my intuitive understanding is inapplicable from people who know better than myself. (Note that this will not in any way be a proof, but just the train of thought I believe to be the line of thinking Fermat may have used to construct his proper mathematical proof.)

My idea here is based upon physical/visual intuition, starting with why it works for n=2 (squares) and then why it cannot work for n=3 (cubes) and then that n>3 is necessarily more complex than n=3 thus cannot work either.

[Note that I will use lower case letters for the sides/roots and their uppercase letters to denote the areas or volumes. Thus, the full equation is Z=Y+X, with X = x^n, resulting in z^n = y^n + x^n. I also use (for n=2), dy = z - y, and Dy = 2(y(dy)) + dy^2, and dx = z - x, and Dx = 2(x(dx)) + dx^2. I'm sorry my dx and dy conflict with calculus notation but my notation means dx is "the difference between z and x" which is the same as "the length that must be added to x to equal z" and Dx is "total amount that must be added to X to get Z". Therefore (for n=2), Dx = Y = 2(x(dx)) + dx^2, and Dy = X = 2(y(dy)) + dy^2. ]

For n=2, Z=Y+X works because (what can be visualized as a square) X can be "smushed" over two sides and their joining corner of (the other square) Y evenly, such that Z = Y + Dy = Y + 2(y(dy)) + dy^2. The term "2(y(dy))" is the amount that must be added along each of the two sides, and the term "dy^2" is the amount that must be added at the corner to complete the perfect square Z.

So, for example, 5^2 = 4^2 + 3^2 because both 3^2 = 9 = 2(4(1)) + 1^2 = 2(4) + 1 = 8 + 1, and 4^2 = 16 = 2(3(2)) + 2^2 = 2(6) + 4 = 12 + 4.

Now, for n=3, we must visualize the situation where the cube X is smushed over the cube Y's three faces and its joining corner. (Now X=x^3 and Y=y^3.)

The equations for dx and dy are the same, but Dx and Dy have expanded by a dimension: Dx = Y = 3(x^2)(dx) + 3(x)(dx^2) + dx^3, and likewise Dy = X = 3(y^2)(dy) + 3(y)(dy^2) + dy^3.

The term "3(x^2)(dx)" is the amount that must be added to three faces of the cube Y, the term "3(x)(dx^2)" is the amount that must be added along the three edges joining those three faces of the cube Y, and the term "dx^3" is the amount that must be added at the corner.

Now, I haven't the maths to prove why Dx and Dy for n=3 won't have integer solutions but my intuition says it has something to do with the fact that it's three dimensions and, therefore, a couple of odd numbers multiplying around in there (the first two terms) and the fact that there are only two cubes being smushed together to try and reconstitute another perfect cube. I also imagine Fermat could actually mathematically prove why it's impossible. Perhaps it can be shown that Dx and Dy cannot both have diophantine solutions. These are just guesses.

As for n>3, the terms (and physical/visual representations) will only become more complex and there will be still only two terms with which to reconstitute the hypercube.

Anyway, that's my intuition about the entire problem and I have to imagine that a proof that Fermat can easily intuit yet is (a bit?) too large to fit in the margin must surely tread down a simple path, perhaps even one that relies on a physical/visual interpretation of what the equations can be likened to.

I look forward to this being eviscerated or flatly rejected, if appropriate, or at least corrected for inconsistencies. If it serves anyone in their exploration of this insidiously complex yet apparently simple-seeming problem, my joy would only grow. If my name would someday appear in a mathematical paper that a real mathematician produces as a result of this, well that would be out of this world for this poverty-striken math wannabe.

[Edited to fix my n=3 equations.]

Re: Feynman on Fermat's Last Theorem (2016)

#45
post #5

This proof (or "plausibility argument") bugs me so much. Just because something thins out and becomes rare doesn't mean it doesn't exist. As n gets bigger, the probability of n being a perfect square gets smaller and smaller. In the limit, the probability is zero. Does this mean square numbers don't exist?

This argument doesn't calculate the probability of an individual number, it sums the probability over every number.

This kind of thing is used a lot in number theory to figure out the plausibility of some theorem. A lot of open number theory problems are of the form "Prove [unlikely event] never happens."

Edit: Removed braindead argument.

Re: Feynman on Fermat's Last Theorem (2016)

#46
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By Feynman's argument, you can prove that square numbers almost certainly keep on existing. Roughly, it goes as such: 1) the probability of N being a perfect square is proportional to 1/sqrt(N). 2) For any N_0 arbitrarily high, if you integrate from N_0 to infinity the expression (1/sqrt(N) dN), you get infinity. 3) The expression in 2) is the "Feynman equivalent" of the expected number of square numbers above N_0. S…

Okay, let's pick something rarer. Rational numbers. If you integrate the characteristic function of the rational numbers over any interval, you get zero because rational numbers are very rare. So they don't exist either? To be less glib, I don't see Feynmann's argument to be bringing anything new. We already knew that counterexamples, if they existed, would be very rare because we tried looking for them with computer…

Your rational numbers argument does indeed fail, but for a different reason. It's not valid to go from a sum over the rationals to an integral in the reals in that way, however it is perfectly valid to go from a sum over the integers to an integral over the reals (in certain situations), if you only want an estimate (see eg. the Euler Maclaurin formula https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euler–Maclaurin_formula ). This was fine in Feynman's argument.

Re: Feynman on Fermat's Last Theorem (2016)

#47
post #3

> Feynman concluded: “for my money Fermat’s theorem is true”. > "the main job of theoretical physics is to prove yourself wrong as soon as possible." Great example of the main difference between mathematicians and theoretical physicists . This reminds me of another magician, Enrico Fermi, who was also an extremely good mathematician but didn't pursue rigor or precision for the sake of it: 20% was good enough precisio…

> > Feynman concluded: “for my money Fermat’s theorem is true”.

> > "the main job of theoretical physics is to prove yourself wrong as soon as possible."

> Great example of the main difference between mathematicians and theoretical physicists.

Actually, I'm not sure I agree: even before Wiles's proof, almost every mathematician would have been willing to wager, at least conversationally, on the truth of FLT; and mathematicians also are in the business of proving themselves wrong as soon as possible. The only catch is that we don't count an inability to prove yourself wrong as a proof that you're right ….

Re: Feynman on Fermat's Last Theorem (2016)

#48
post #39
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s not what’s happening. Consider, many useful primality tests are statistical in nature. It’s pure math, and exact answer is possible but it’s still useful to get a quick check to see if something is a waste of time. Really, if a full solution takes 20 years you don’t want to actually spend 20 years without having a very good idea it’s going to work.

I think jordigh is saying that the method is not statistically sound, i.e. that it will not (necessarily) give accurate probability estimates. They're not criticizing the method simply for being statistical.

jordigh hasn't given support for that claim.

Re: Feynman on Fermat's Last Theorem (2016)

#49

Is anyone still trying to come up with Fermat's original "truly marvelous proof"? Or have math folk talked themselves out of its possible existence?

Well, I'm not 'math folk' (grey beard programmer), but I love the Horizon documentary on Andrew Wiles and his solution, and I'd love to hear why my intuitive understanding is inapplicable from people who know better than myself. (Note that this will not in any way be a proof, but just the train of thought I believe to be the line of thinking Fermat may have used to construct his proper mathematical proof.) My idea he…

Your intuition is similar in spirit to Feynman's. For n>2, the number of plausible candidates is sparse, whereas for n<=2, there are many plausible candidates.

Re: Feynman on Fermat's Last Theorem (2016)

#50
post #29
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consecutive base numbers will necessarily alternate between even and odd. So even the closest base numbers still have a gap between their resulting odd number series, which only increases as the distance between base numbers increases.

Still don't get it. What do you mean by "base numbers" and what do you mean by "alternate between even and odd"?

'ox_n appears to be trying to prove (by a pigeonhole agument) that the equation x^n + y^n = z^n in unsolvable for _some z_. That's much weaker than proving that it is unsatisfiable at _every_ z.
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