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Air Canada agents reveal overselling practices

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Re: Air Canada agents reveal overselling practices

#91

Post by tomhoward »

notahacker wrote: post #86
tomhoward wrote: post #24

It's been discussed on HN before [1], but it's worth mentioning in this thread that there's a YC-backed company – Volantio – working to solve this specific problem. Most airlines' position is that they have to oversell flights, otherwise planes will fly with empty seats unnecessarily. But from passengers' point of view, there aren't always enough people who'll voluntarily accept an offer to transfer to a different fl…

Intrigued by how this works days or weeks before (except in the case of an aircraft swap being known in advance) given that the extent to which passengers will turn up in numbers greater than originally estimated is generally only known at check in stage, probably Still, even communication on the morning of the flight beats finding out at the airport (Gold standard for poor service goes to airBerlin, who somehow mana…

Here's a presentation they did to the Skift travel conference a few months ago, which explains it well:

https://vimeo.com/296887680

Re: Air Canada agents reveal overselling practices

#92

Post by lisper »

tomhoward wrote: post #88
lisper wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One valid reason for this practice is the existence of fully flexible fares Airlines are under no obligation to offer fully flexible fares. If they screw up the business model so badly, maybe the answer is to simply stop offering them.

Flexible fares matter a lot, both to customers (mostly business travellers with uncertain schedules) and airline economics. They don't screw up the business model, the business model relies on it. Without these fares, everyone would be paying more and flexible passengers would be inconvenienced. But the presence or absence of flexible fares doesn't change the fact that the precise number of passengers trying to board…

No, it's not complicated at all. Just sell "standby" tickets and "guaranteed seat" tickets.

The problem is that right now every ticket is effectively a standby ticket, and this is buried in the fine print.

Re: Air Canada agents reveal overselling practices

#93

Post by dannyw »

deathanatos wrote: post #73
tomhoward wrote: post #24

It's been discussed on HN before [1], but it's worth mentioning in this thread that there's a YC-backed company – Volantio – working to solve this specific problem. Most airlines' position is that they have to oversell flights, otherwise planes will fly with empty seats unnecessarily. But from passengers' point of view, there aren't always enough people who'll voluntarily accept an offer to transfer to a different fl…

> But from passengers' point of view, there aren't always enough people who'll voluntarily accept an offer to transfer to a different flight once they are at the gate awaiting boarding There are; they just won't accept any offer. Most of the airline offers I have been offered in this situation were paltry: reschedule and some airline "credit". Give me a partial or full refund, and I'll be much more willing to volunte…

Wouldn't exactly say so. They always escalate their offers, starts off being quite meager, but eventually a few hundred bucks credit plus a hotel isn't bad.

Re: Air Canada agents reveal overselling practices

#94

Post by dannyw »

iancarroll wrote: post #77
alkonaut wrote: post #74

Overselling is standard practice in the industry. It's also not a secret. Any passenger on any airline should be able to ask any member of staff of that airline and get the same answer: yes we sell more than 100% of the seats, and if we didn't you would have paid more for yours. I don't mind this at all so long as my compensation for not being allowed to board is high enough. That is: who is allowed to board should n…

Indeed. In the USA, especially after the United debacle, "voluntary denied-boardings" have become quite profitable for those that take them. When UA/etc say that they have increased their maximum compensation per person to $10,000, they aren't kidding, and this does get offered (though usually it's filled at lower amounts.) I've taken 4-figure VDBs and been quite happy with the result.

Impressed it ever has gotten to that far. I've taken a $500 + hotel and thought that was a deal!

Re: Air Canada agents reveal overselling practices

#95

Post by dannyw »

vkou wrote: post #68
freeone3000 wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Service staff appear to not make it clear to customers that unless your boarding pass has a seat number on it that you don't have a seat.

No airline I have ever flown with has ever made this clear to me. Ever. Maybe if you know what magic words to ask, and specifically ask them - but at that point, you should already know the answer.

For the record, I've got the dreaded GATE many times, and never been denied boarding.

Re: Air Canada agents reveal overselling practices

#96

Post by tomhoward »

lisper wrote: post #92
tomhoward wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Flexible fares matter a lot, both to customers (mostly business travellers with uncertain schedules) and airline economics. They don't screw up the business model, the business model relies on it. Without these fares, everyone would be paying more and flexible passengers would be inconvenienced. But the presence or absence of flexible fares doesn't change the fact that the precise number of passengers trying to board…

No, it's not complicated at all. Just sell "standby" tickets and "guaranteed seat" tickets. The problem is that right now every ticket is effectively a standby ticket, and this is buried in the fine print.

I keep explaining to you, in good faith, based on 10+ years in this industry, why things aren't all they seem, and you keep inventing new reasons why it really should be that simple but that you seem to think nobody has thought of yet.

A lot of people have thought a lot about these problems for a long time now.

Many of them are both clever and well-intentioned.

I understand that last sentence is where we differ.

So I guess we're done here.

Re: Air Canada agents reveal overselling practices

#97

Post by dannyw »

TomVDB wrote: post #45
refurb wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Canadian who flies a lot, Air Canada has absolutely the worst customer service. They make the “crappy” American carriers (United, etc) seem luxurious by comparison. I remember one time connecting in to Vancouver and asking if I could could jump on the earlier flight rather than waiting 3 hours. Done this multiple times with US carriers if there is room. What do they care if the seat would have been empty otherwi…

This used to work in the past in the US. But last 5 years or so, every single time I've asked this with major carriers in the US, I've been quoted similarly high change fees as well.

Did you use the word 'change' or 'standby'?

Re: Air Canada agents reveal overselling practices

#98

Post by martin_a »

rlpb wrote: post #87
lisper wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Because if a seat is sold twice but only used one that's more profit than if every seat is only sold once. Well, yeah, but that badly misses the point. Selling any product twice is more profitable than selling it only once, all else being equal. But in most industries, selling the same product twice is considered unacceptable. In fact, it would be considered fraud. The story that the airlines tell to make people th…

Allowing airlines to oversell has the effect, in a competitive market, of reducing ticket prices for everyone else. Put another way: banning oversell would mean that airlines routinely travel with more empty seats. This inefficiency would show through in higher ticket prices. > In fact, it would be considered fraud. Fraud involves deception. This doesn't apply in a market environment where it is widely known that the…

> Allowing airlines to oversell has the effect, in a competitive market, of reducing ticket prices for everyone else.

No. You have to calculate for compensations for the people who have to be left behind because the flight was oversold. As you can read in the comments, those compensations can come in quite expensive. And rebooking passengers to other flights means that you can't sell that specific seat at the right price.

> Put another way: banning oversell would mean that airlines routinely travel with more empty seats. This inefficiency would show through in higher ticket prices.

Again: No. You have 100 seats, you sell 100 tickets. People have to show up to fly with you, no refunds if you don't show up. If this type of calculation does not cover your costs as the airline, you have a bigger problem in general.

> Fraud involves deception. This doesn't apply in a market environment where it is widely known that they oversell.

I find it highly deceptive that somebody is trying to sell me a seat which he has already sold and is now hoping that one buyer does not show up. To be honest, selling the same good twice and only delivering once could very well be a definition of fraud. Try that on some kind of marketplace and you will find yourself in quite some trouble in no time.

Re: Air Canada agents reveal overselling practices

#99

Post by detaro »

rlpb wrote: post #87
lisper wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Because if a seat is sold twice but only used one that's more profit than if every seat is only sold once. Well, yeah, but that badly misses the point. Selling any product twice is more profitable than selling it only once, all else being equal. But in most industries, selling the same product twice is considered unacceptable. In fact, it would be considered fraud. The story that the airlines tell to make people th…

Allowing airlines to oversell has the effect, in a competitive market, of reducing ticket prices for everyone else. Put another way: banning oversell would mean that airlines routinely travel with more empty seats. This inefficiency would show through in higher ticket prices. > In fact, it would be considered fraud. Fraud involves deception. This doesn't apply in a market environment where it is widely known that the…

I wonder what the effects would be if the airlines had to put a clear statement directly above the "buy now" button, like "You might not be allowed to take this flight if too many people turn up for it, see our compensation policy if this happens here". It shouldn't make a difference at all if it's actually "widely known" to all participants, but I suspect it actually isn't.

Re: Air Canada agents reveal overselling practices

#100

Post by NikolaNovak »

I am not sure how much article is misrepresenting the seriousness.

I travel air Canada 30+ times a year. GTE strictly means what it says - you don't have seat assigned and you may get one at the gate. They cannot help you at the checkin until they know who all is boarding. So from that perspective strictly, I understand that sending them to gate to await their destiny,rather than try to resolve at the checkin counter. At the checkin,you are a Schroedinger passenger - just don't know if you'll make it or not. There's nothing they can do to you there.

I do not believe it is correct to imply that GTE absolutely means you WON'T be boarded and thus its a complete lie. I have had that on my pass and have boarded - granted I have a bit of priority (lowest status level). Colleagues without status have had same experience. You just don't know.

Article also doesn't advise strongly enough to do an online or early checkin.

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