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Air Canada agents reveal overselling practices

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Re: Air Canada agents reveal overselling practices

#71

Post by colde »

refurb wrote: post #42
cameldrv wrote: post #39

I've had an extremely bad experience with Air Canada that's eerily consistent with this article. Upgrade to business at the ticket counter, assigned seats, and then a red light and a sad noise from the ticket machine when I tried to board. Then a torrent of excuses, blame shifting, and rude behavior. This really soured me on Air Canada.

As a Canadian who flies a lot, Air Canada has absolutely the worst customer service. They make the “crappy” American carriers (United, etc) seem luxurious by comparison. I remember one time connecting in to Vancouver and asking if I could could jump on the earlier flight rather than waiting 3 hours. Done this multiple times with US carriers if there is room. What do they care if the seat would have been empty otherwi…

I think that's more of a US versus the rest of the world thing. You can't do that anywhere in Europe with any carrier either without incurring change fees. Standby and same day changes is not really a thing outside of the US.

Re: Air Canada agents reveal overselling practices

#72

Post by furyg3 »

BlackFly wrote: post #59

Seems that nobody is reading the article. Yes, pretty much all airlines are overselling. However, Air Canada employees speaking on condition of anonymity are stating that business as usual for the airline is to string customers along until the last minute, even if it is known well in advance that they are not going to be boarding. That is to say, passengers with GTE on the gate indication of the boarding pass will no…

Absolutely. To some degree I understand overselling†, and I also know that airlines don't know who's going to show or not, but passengers should be made aware and given options. With non-refundable tickets you're committed to the airlines, they should have a commitment to you. If they choose to oversell, they should be transparant and give you the option of adjusting your plans... Instead of pretenting you're on the flight but you're actually flying standby.

Frequent travelers know that getting a boarding pass with a seat number actually a race they don't want to lose, and will hound the call center if there's a problem with online check-in.

† Personally I think that airlines regulated and given two options for overselling flights:

1) If you miss your flight, and a paid passenger takes your place, you should be informed and not suffer financial consequences (re-booking fees, etc).

2) If the airlines has already sold a full flight and starts knowingly overselling, it should be communicated to the passenger when they buy the ticket ('priority standby' or something). This would, of course, make customers value these tickets less.

Re: Air Canada agents reveal overselling practices

#73

Post by deathanatos »

tomhoward wrote: post #24

It's been discussed on HN before [1], but it's worth mentioning in this thread that there's a YC-backed company – Volantio – working to solve this specific problem. Most airlines' position is that they have to oversell flights, otherwise planes will fly with empty seats unnecessarily. But from passengers' point of view, there aren't always enough people who'll voluntarily accept an offer to transfer to a different fl…

> But from passengers' point of view, there aren't always enough people who'll voluntarily accept an offer to transfer to a different flight once they are at the gate awaiting boarding

There are; they just won't accept any offer. Most of the airline offers I have been offered in this situation were paltry: reschedule and some airline "credit".

Give me a partial or full refund, and I'll be much more willing to volunteer. Otherwise, you're seeing passengers value their time higher than some credit and lost time.

Re: Air Canada agents reveal overselling practices

#74

Post by alkonaut »

Overselling is standard practice in the industry. It's also not a secret. Any passenger on any airline should be able to ask any member of staff of that airline and get the same answer: yes we sell more than 100% of the seats, and if we didn't you would have paid more for yours.

I don't mind this at all so long as my compensation for not being allowed to board is high enough. That is: who is allowed to board should not be decided by the airline. It should be decided by the airline asking passengers who can accept taking the next plane. "We have an overbooking of 3 passengers, passengers willing to take the next flight for €300 please contact gate 49.".

I have seen this work. I have seen people rush to get that compensation check (presumably because they had no time to keep, or even a long enough connection that it doesn't matter for their final arrival time).

If I'm going to a wedding and can't be late, I'm not going to volonteer to take the next plane.

Obviously: if the airline randomly selects passengers to not board, without flexibility or "auctioning", that is absolutely unacceptable. That will invariably lead to the passenger selected being the person that can't be late for that wedding being the one booted. Basically: if there is even a rumor of your airline doing that - find another airline and let them know.

Re: Air Canada agents reveal overselling practices

#75

Post by lisper »

tomhoward wrote: post #69
lisper wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Because if a seat is sold twice but only used one that's more profit than if every seat is only sold once. Well, yeah, but that badly misses the point. Selling any product twice is more profitable than selling it only once, all else being equal. But in most industries, selling the same product twice is considered unacceptable. In fact, it would be considered fraud. The story that the airlines tell to make people th…

One valid reason for this practice is the existence of fully flexible fares, that can be switched at late notice. So there is always some uncertainty about exactly how many ticket holders will be wanting to board a given flight. As for the rest, I dunno, maybe give them a break. Margins run at about 1%, give or take, so two empty seats matters. Heavy financial losses and bankruptcies are common for airlines. On the p…

> One valid reason for this practice is the existence of fully flexible fares

Airlines are under no obligation to offer fully flexible fares. If they screw up the business model so badly, maybe the answer is to simply stop offering them.

Re: Air Canada agents reveal overselling practices

#76

Post by saiya-jin »

FearNotDaniel wrote: post #67

Is this only a North American thing? I've flown hundreds of times within Europe over the last few years, and every single time I've had a seat assigned at online check in, usually 24-72hrs before boarding depending on airline. I've seen lines of standby passengers at Frankfurt, waiting at the gate just in case they get lucky at the last minute, but knowing in advance that they don't have a seat on that plane unless s…

It happened to me on flight to Krakow (polish LOT) for example. I had a boarding pass, and only at the gate I was told the plane is overbooked and I can't go (plus 2 other passengers). Plans well ruined.

It is a pathetic, deplorable strategy based on pure greed. I am saddened that in a place like EU this is still not tackled properly. The compensation for messed up plans is pathetic and clearly not punishing enough to airlines to abandon this practice. I am sympathetic for delays/cancellations for causes out of influence of an airline, but this is conscious risk taken by airline and big FU to travellers.

Re: Air Canada agents reveal overselling practices

#77

Post by iancarroll »

alkonaut wrote: post #74

Overselling is standard practice in the industry. It's also not a secret. Any passenger on any airline should be able to ask any member of staff of that airline and get the same answer: yes we sell more than 100% of the seats, and if we didn't you would have paid more for yours. I don't mind this at all so long as my compensation for not being allowed to board is high enough. That is: who is allowed to board should n…

Indeed. In the USA, especially after the United debacle, "voluntary denied-boardings" have become quite profitable for those that take them. When UA/etc say that they have increased their maximum compensation per person to $10,000, they aren't kidding, and this does get offered (though usually it's filled at lower amounts.)

I've taken 4-figure VDBs and been quite happy with the result.

Re: Air Canada agents reveal overselling practices

#78

Post by yason »

FearNotDaniel wrote: post #67

Is this only a North American thing? I've flown hundreds of times within Europe over the last few years, and every single time I've had a seat assigned at online check in, usually 24-72hrs before boarding depending on airline. I've seen lines of standby passengers at Frankfurt, waiting at the gate just in case they get lucky at the last minute, but knowing in advance that they don't have a seat on that plane unless s…

At least with European carriers (with flight to/from USA) each time I've been offered to take a later flight it has been at the check-in or bag drop, I've been informed that should I accept I'd get a boarding pass and should go to the gate where they would eventually tell me whether I'm flying or not. So, no surprises there, ever. They gather a group of passengers willing to trade their flights and pick flyers vs hotel goers among those.

Re: Air Canada agents reveal overselling practices

#79

Post by mschuster91 »

lisper wrote: post #75
tomhoward wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One valid reason for this practice is the existence of fully flexible fares, that can be switched at late notice. So there is always some uncertainty about exactly how many ticket holders will be wanting to board a given flight. As for the rest, I dunno, maybe give them a break. Margins run at about 1%, give or take, so two empty seats matters. Heavy financial losses and bankruptcies are common for airlines. On the p…

> One valid reason for this practice is the existence of fully flexible fares Airlines are under no obligation to offer fully flexible fares. If they screw up the business model so badly, maybe the answer is to simply stop offering them.

> If they screw up the business model so badly, maybe the answer is to simply stop offering them.

The problem is that there is lots of competition backed by heavy state funding that can weather out bad events (e.g. a 9/11 scenario with a general downturn, or something as simple as a volcano eruption, or mundane such as strikes of any kind of personnel).

The other smaller airlines have to keep up with the offering of the big giants even if they're unsustainable or risky or they risk directly going out of business.

Re: Air Canada agents reveal overselling practices

#80

Post by BlackFly »

furyg3 wrote: post #72
BlackFly wrote: post #59

Seems that nobody is reading the article. Yes, pretty much all airlines are overselling. However, Air Canada employees speaking on condition of anonymity are stating that business as usual for the airline is to string customers along until the last minute, even if it is known well in advance that they are not going to be boarding. That is to say, passengers with GTE on the gate indication of the boarding pass will no…

Absolutely. To some degree I understand overselling†, and I also know that airlines don't know who's going to show or not, but passengers should be made aware and given options. With non-refundable tickets you're committed to the airlines, they should have a commitment to you. If they choose to oversell, they should be transparant and give you the option of adjusting your plans... Instead of pretenting you're on the…

Yes, I can understand overselling as well, but it should be a gamble on the part of the airlines that they don't want to lose. It seems that in many places there are too few ramifications for losing this particular gamble.

I think the EU regulations regarding denied boarding are pretty good (or at least a good start).

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