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The Secret Facebook War for Mormon Hearts and Minds

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Re: The Secret Facebook War for Mormon Hearts and Minds

#51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's actually hard to find anti-mormon anything. There isn't as many people who have something in particular against the Mormon church as Mormons were raised to believe (including me - I'm an ex-mormon). Most of the compaining is by freethinkers who are against religions that are overly strict or exclusive (Mormons are encouraged not to date or marry outside of the Mormon church even though Mormons call themselves Ch…

There is plenty of anti-Mormon sentiment among American Protestants who happily deny Mormon status as Christians while willfully ignoring that their own particular stream of Christian practice is only a small slice of the doctrines that have been developed over the millennia.

It's not just protestants. The Catholic Church also teaches that Mormons are not Christians, because they don't have valid baptism[1]. I wouldn't be surprised if the Orthodox teach the same, but someone else will have to speak to that.

[1]https://www.catholic.com/qa/why-doesnt-the-catholic-church-a...

Re: The Secret Facebook War for Mormon Hearts and Minds

#52
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that claim is about Joseph Smith and marriages while he was alive, because polygamy wasn't official church doctrine then. I haven't found a good dataset, but this book has this comment: "Latter-day Saints were surprisingly obedient to the counsel to marry, and in 1860 Manti, only 1.6 percent of women over the age of 16 had never been to the altar." I believe 14 was the minimum legal age of marriage for…

That's a rather horrifying statistic, especially as nowadays we would not class 14-16 year olds as "women". It beggars belief that 98.4% of Mormon girls would have fallen in love by age 16, especially with older men who already have a harem of wives, so we have to assume a shocking degree of social pressure, amounting essentially to arranged marriages. I've always wondered at the historical accuracy of "A Study In Sc…

The historical norm for girl v.s. woman is drawn at puberty. The mormons might have been an outlier in the US at the time, but until industrialization, most women were having their first child in their mid to late teenage years.

Even today, the median age for a woman having her first child in some poorer countries such as Niger, Bangladesh etc. is 18 years[1]. That means a lot of them are younger than that. If you get a group of ten 15 year old girls from Bangladesh, statistically one of them will be nursing their first child.

So let's be careful to judge history by the standards of today. Sure, some of this was mormon practices, but other parts of it was just because these people were doing the same thing most poor peasants on the rest of the planet were doing and considered normal.

1. https://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/People/Mothe...

2. http://www.hips.hacettepe.edu.tr/nbd_cilt35/nahar_zahangir.p...

Re: The Secret Facebook War for Mormon Hearts and Minds

#53
post #2

I'm an active member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, and I've tried to be as educated as possible about the controversial/anti-mormon stuff (for example I've read the CES letter). But this is the first time I've come across this claim: "During that time [when plural marriage was part of the doctrine] some male followers of the Latter Day Saint movement took dozens of wives each, disproportionately…

FWIW, in places where polygamy is widespread, there is usually a shortage of potential female mates. This puts a downward pressure on the age at which girls are sought for marriage.

Re: The Secret Facebook War for Mormon Hearts and Minds

#54
post #52
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a rather horrifying statistic, especially as nowadays we would not class 14-16 year olds as "women". It beggars belief that 98.4% of Mormon girls would have fallen in love by age 16, especially with older men who already have a harem of wives, so we have to assume a shocking degree of social pressure, amounting essentially to arranged marriages. I've always wondered at the historical accuracy of "A Study In Sc…

The historical norm for girl v.s. woman is drawn at puberty. The mormons might have been an outlier in the US at the time, but until industrialization, most women were having their first child in their mid to late teenage years. Even today, the median age for a woman having her first child in some poorer countries such as Niger, Bangladesh etc. is 18 years[1]. That means a lot of them are younger than that. If you ge…

We’re most women in the United States marrying that young? I think I saw somewhere that the average age of marriage wasn’t too far from today.

Re: The Secret Facebook War for Mormon Hearts and Minds

#55
post #21
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No reason at all. It was generally allowed in the U.S. Age of consent was typically 10 years old until 1885 https://discover-the-truth.com/2013/09/09/age-of-consent-in-... "After 1885, age of consent laws changed around the country, reaching 16 in New York in 1889 and 18 in 1895. Prior to these changes the age of consent in most places in the United States was 10 or 12 years." There's a very strong trend to criticize…

This is a common rationalization taught to educated true-believing mormons. While it is true that the age of consent was lower than today, according to the contemporary census (1890s is what I have records for, Smith's relationships were 1830s-40s) age of marriage was about the same it is now ( http://i.imgur.com/HnQjG67.png ). Whats more, looking at comparable relationships contemporary or even before Smith's time,…

> This is a common rationalization taught to educated true-believing mormons.

FWIW I'm not a Mormon (or an American). So I have no dog in this fight. I just find the historical demographics & statistics interesting.

> [...]age of marriage was about the same it is now (http://i.imgur.com/HnQjG67.png).

Yes, if you look at the average for the population as a whole. But once you look at percentile breakdowns (such as page 26 of [1]) you see a very different picture.

In 1850 the 10th & 25th percentile of marriage age for white women was 17.0 and 18.8, respectively, 16.2 and 17.8 if they were black.

It seems very likely that if you were a sustenance farmer on the frontier in a town that had been established just 10-15 years prior (such as Manti, UT being discussed here) it wouldn't be unusual for "normal" locally to be what was the "normal" for the 5th or percentile of the population as a whole, or even lower.

Furthermore as the [1] paper notes the marriage age (and childbearing) ages in Western Europe and North America were inflated over the rest of the globe at the time, due to a difference in societal structure.

I wouldn't be surprised if isolated communities in North America such as the Mormons or the Amish who were deliberately setting out to do their own thing looked very different demographically.

> Sally Hemmings and Thomas Jefferson (15 and 45 respectively) in the late 18th century and you can clearly find plenty of condemnation of the age disparity between the two.

Yes, that sort of thing is definitely an outlier, and the Mormons with their polygamy practices can rightly be said to be unusual in this regard.

But that shouldn't be confused with the question of whether the age of first marriage (or child) should per-se be considered profoundly unusual for the time, or some extreme outlier. As far I can tell it wasn't.

1. http://users.hist.umn.edu/~ruggles/Articles/Fitch_and_Ruggle...

2. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19131894

Re: The Secret Facebook War for Mormon Hearts and Minds

#56
post #49
post #48

Mormonism is just odd.

Abrahamic religions are weird in general. What's your point? The article highlights the fact that it is now possible for single individuals to order Facebook ads targeted at very specific groups, and asks whether the practice is ethical or not. This could just as easily have been done inside other organizational structures, such as political parties and other interest groups.

Thank you for the summary

Re: The Secret Facebook War for Mormon Hearts and Minds

#57
post #47

“Ex-Mormons responded in droves to dump their contact lists of current Mormons. By the end of the first day his ad target list had grown from 30 to 397” So now people get doxxed by friends and family. Imagine someone pretending to do this to influence someone in one direction, but then using it for any other reason. Who can say none of their friends would be tricked?

In my observation, ex-Mormons are particularly vindictive, even by normal Christian atheist standards.

Similar to how current Mormons are?

Re: The Secret Facebook War for Mormon Hearts and Minds

#58
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my observation, ex-Mormons are particularly vindictive, even by normal Christian atheist standards.

Similar to how current Mormons are?

Maybe? It might also depend on whether or not they are from Utah/Southern Idaho, because the California mormons I know are pretty laid back. In any event defining one's identity in terms of a negation observably warps one's outlook, and I've never seen it be positive.

Mormons obviously believe some pretty strange things, but they also tend to live pretty admirable lives, with a strong focus on community, family, charitable giving, and more.

Re: The Secret Facebook War for Mormon Hearts and Minds

#59
post #50
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a rather horrifying statistic, especially as nowadays we would not class 14-16 year olds as "women". It beggars belief that 98.4% of Mormon girls would have fallen in love by age 16, especially with older men who already have a harem of wives, so we have to assume a shocking degree of social pressure, amounting essentially to arranged marriages. I've always wondered at the historical accuracy of "A Study In Sc…

FWIW Manti in 1860 probably had a population of a few hundred, so the population of females aged 16-25 (or whatever upper age you think is reasonable) could have been quite small. If only 2% of women over age 16 as also under age 18, that statistic is not so shocking. I don't agree that this statistic alone demonstrates that "almost all women were married between 14-16." "A study in scarlet" is not historically accur…

Didn't realize I forgot the actual book link, not sure which one it was now. The population was about 1000.
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