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The Secret Facebook War for Mormon Hearts and Minds

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Re: The Secret Facebook War for Mormon Hearts and Minds

#21

Post by xnyan »

kbutler wrote: post #15
stevenwoo wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The founder Joseph Smith had 14, 16, 17 year old brides. If it was allowed for Joseph Smith why should anyone else be different?

No reason at all. It was generally allowed in the U.S. Age of consent was typically 10 years old until 1885 https://discover-the-truth.com/2013/09/09/age-of-consent-in-... "After 1885, age of consent laws changed around the country, reaching 16 in New York in 1889 and 18 in 1895. Prior to these changes the age of consent in most places in the United States was 10 or 12 years." There's a very strong trend to criticize…

This is a common rationalization taught to educated true-believing mormons. While it is true that the age of consent was lower than today, according to the contemporary census (1890s is what I have records for, Smith's relationships were 1830s-40s) age of marriage was about the same it is now (http://i.imgur.com/HnQjG67.png).

Whats more, looking at comparable relationships contemporary or even before Smith's time, let's say Sally Hemmings and Thomas Jefferson (15 and 45 respectively) in the late 18th century and you can clearly find plenty of condemnation of the age disparity between the two.

I'm sure there were others who were fine with men like Jefferson and Smith preying on teenagers, but it does not mean it was considered ok then.

Re: The Secret Facebook War for Mormon Hearts and Minds

#22

Post by benatkin »

richeyrw wrote: post #4
andrewl wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never been involved with the LDS church, but you could find a lot of interesting information at the Ex Mormon section of Reddit: https://old.reddit.com/r/exmormon/top/ And the wiki that goes along with it: https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/wiki/index

There's no dearth of places to find ex-mormon/anti-mormon info. I'm looking for documentation of that specific claim. I did follow the links, but I didn't see anything promising.

It's actually hard to find anti-mormon anything. There isn't as many people who have something in particular against the Mormon church as Mormons were raised to believe (including me - I'm an ex-mormon). Most of the compaining is by freethinkers who are against religions that are overly strict or exclusive (Mormons are encouraged not to date or marry outside of the Mormon church even though Mormons call themselves Christians, for example).

Re: The Secret Facebook War for Mormon Hearts and Minds

#23

Post by empressplay »

richeyrw wrote: post #2

I'm an active member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, and I've tried to be as educated as possible about the controversial/anti-mormon stuff (for example I've read the CES letter). But this is the first time I've come across this claim: "During that time [when plural marriage was part of the doctrine] some male followers of the Latter Day Saint movement took dozens of wives each, disproportionately…

"Bountiful has come under intense scrutiny for its involvement in the polygamous sect. Warren Jeffs, who was one of the FBI's Ten Most Wanted Fugitives, is thought to have visited a dozen or so times in 2005. The Vancouver Sun on January 28, 2006, released information stating that Utah's Attorney General is collaborating with British Columbia's Attorney General in attempting to deal with polygamy and the alleged abuse in these communities. Jeffs was captured by the authorities outside Las Vegas during August 2006 during a routine traffic stop. On September 25, 2007 Jeffs was found guilty of being an accomplice to rape. Prosecutors said Jeffs forced a 14-year-old girl into marriage and sex with her 19-year-old first cousin."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bountiful,_British_Columbia#Al...

Re: The Secret Facebook War for Mormon Hearts and Minds

#24

Post by [deleted] »

slavik81 wrote: post #13
richeyrw wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no dearth of places to find ex-mormon/anti-mormon info. I'm looking for documentation of that specific claim. I did follow the links, but I didn't see anything promising.

> There's no dearth of places to find ex-mormon/anti-mormon info. Off-topic, but I visited Salt Lake City last year and I was surprised by a bookstore that had both a Mormon section and an Anti-Mormon section. I'd never seen an Anti-Mormon section in a bookstore before, and I certainly didn't expect to see it in SLC of all places. But in retrospect, it kind of makes sense that people would have stronger opinions abou…

[deleted]

Re: The Secret Facebook War for Mormon Hearts and Minds

#25

Post by jjeaff »

twblalock wrote: post #17
kbutler wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No reason at all. It was generally allowed in the U.S. Age of consent was typically 10 years old until 1885 https://discover-the-truth.com/2013/09/09/age-of-consent-in-... "After 1885, age of consent laws changed around the country, reaching 16 in New York in 1889 and 18 in 1895. Prior to these changes the age of consent in most places in the United States was 10 or 12 years." There's a very strong trend to criticize…

> There's a very strong trend to criticize historical figures for not conforming to modern standards, but it's not usually very useful in understanding their character. Smith was considered an outlier by his contemporaries. This is not simply a case of applying modern standards to a 19th-century person. People alive at the time considered his marriages abnormal.

The polygamy part. But not necessarily the age part.

Re: The Secret Facebook War for Mormon Hearts and Minds

#26

Post by Tsubasachan »

kbutler wrote: post #15
stevenwoo wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The founder Joseph Smith had 14, 16, 17 year old brides. If it was allowed for Joseph Smith why should anyone else be different?

No reason at all. It was generally allowed in the U.S. Age of consent was typically 10 years old until 1885 https://discover-the-truth.com/2013/09/09/age-of-consent-in-... "After 1885, age of consent laws changed around the country, reaching 16 in New York in 1889 and 18 in 1895. Prior to these changes the age of consent in most places in the United States was 10 or 12 years." There's a very strong trend to criticize…

Mormons have always been shall we say criticized for their unorthodox sex lives. They didn't up in Utah because they liked the fresh air. In fact Nevada and Utah split because non believers didn't want to share a State with them.

Re: The Secret Facebook War for Mormon Hearts and Minds

#27

Post by cronix »

richeyrw wrote: post #2

I'm an active member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, and I've tried to be as educated as possible about the controversial/anti-mormon stuff (for example I've read the CES letter). But this is the first time I've come across this claim: "During that time [when plural marriage was part of the doctrine] some male followers of the Latter Day Saint movement took dozens of wives each, disproportionately…

The quote you quoted does say "some...took dozens...disproportionately favoring..." That could be 2 out of a million to count as "some," and maybe those 2/1,000,000 disproportionately took very young wives. If they used most instead of some, your point would be more valid I think. some is ambiguous and could be any number.

Re: The Secret Facebook War for Mormon Hearts and Minds

#28

Post by lazyasciiart »

richeyrw wrote: post #10
sago wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The original demographic research: https://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/artic... And a review of its more recent book-length expansion: https://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/artic...

I did a search for the number 14 and 16 without seeing anything that matched the claim. The closest I saw was "These men averaged thirty-six years of age (range: 24-60) and had been married an average of ten years (1-32 years) before marrying a second wife of a mean twenty-five years of age (14-39 years). At that time, their legal wives averaged thirty-two years of age (22-56)."

I don't think that claim is about Joseph Smith and marriages while he was alive, because polygamy wasn't official church doctrine then.

I haven't found a good dataset, but this book has this comment: "Latter-day Saints were surprisingly obedient to the counsel to marry, and in 1860 Manti, only 1.6 percent of women over the age of 16 had never been to the altar." I believe 14 was the minimum legal age of marriage for at least part of that time, so that would mean almost all women were married between 14-16. Depending how many of them re-married after being widowed or divorced, or how many older women migrated in for marriage, I'm not sure what the overall stats of 'age at marriage' would look.

Re: The Secret Facebook War for Mormon Hearts and Minds

#29

Post by squidbot »

richeyrw wrote: post #2

I'm an active member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, and I've tried to be as educated as possible about the controversial/anti-mormon stuff (for example I've read the CES letter). But this is the first time I've come across this claim: "During that time [when plural marriage was part of the doctrine] some male followers of the Latter Day Saint movement took dozens of wives each, disproportionately…

https://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/issue...

Starting on page 37, the complete data is published including the marriage age of husband and wife (I didn't actually download it, and was looking at the charts sideways.) There are definitely a lot of <= 16 wives. I guess the question is disproportionate to what? The rest of the US population at the time? It's a vague statement to begin with. Anyway, you can count them yourself, I just took a quick glance, and yes, there are a lot.

Re: The Secret Facebook War for Mormon Hearts and Minds

#30

Post by ridgeguy »

A perspective on how it was to be a Mormon wife (specifically, one of Brigham Young's wives) is available in a book "Wife no. 19" by Ann Eliza Young, self-described as "Brigham Young's apostate wife". Published in 1876, readable at [1].

It's been the focal point of quite a few spirited discussions between the Mormon members of my family and (non-Mormon) me.

[1] https://archive.org/details/wifenoorstoryofl00youniala/page/...

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