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Proposed Jail Time for Tech Companies Who Steal Data

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Re: Proposed Jail Time for Tech Companies Who Steal Data

#161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I completely agree. I was referring to the GP's framing of the situation as Big Bad Regulation squashing Mom & Pop tech startups- a bogeyman of dubious existence.

How willing are you to invest in an early-stage startup whose founders could be arrested over a data breach? How much of your own money would you be willing to risk? Would you be willing to work as a founder of such a company and take on the risk of jail time? If this "bogeyman" is of "dubious existence" then your answer should not be impacted at all by the nature of the regulation or the punishment for non-complianc…

Sure, given how many questionable firms from Theranos to Juicero have been successfully funded.

So long as dumb money continues to flow, there is little to fear. When this bout of irrational exuberance does abate, tech will have bigger things to worry about than consumer protection laws.

Re: Proposed Jail Time for Tech Companies Who Steal Data

#162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a terrifying possibility. Are there any actual case studies and examples of tech startups being killed by regulation? Or is this a campfire story that is retold whenever the possibility of regulation is mentioned.

If like me you view copyright and related laws like the DMCA as regulation, then absolutely -- all the peer-to-peer networking companies from 15 years ago were killed by regulation, not to mention companies that tried to sell circumvention tools (all killed by the DMCA). Really though, the tech industry has not yet been subject to such significant regulations. The history of the railroad industry is filled with examp…

That is a fair point about the DMCA, but doesn’t the reduction of piracy caused by both the rise of new upstart streaming services like Netflix or Steam, and the entrenched major players relenting and offering their own services and allowing their properties to be streamed, refute that legislation had a dampening effect on innovation?

Not to mention, while some p2p tech companies were sued out of existence, others that went legit (like Napster) or toed the line (like BitTorrent) were not.

Yes, regulation will lead to some losers. But it’s questionable that consumers will be among them.

Re: Proposed Jail Time for Tech Companies Who Steal Data

#163
post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many more decades does the "tech" industry get to continue using the "you can't regulate us because we're new and stuff, also innovation or something" line for? I've been working in this industry for nearly 30 years, and it wasn't even "new" when I got my start. I can't help but laugh at people who act as though it just popped up last year. Is this just a result of young kids trying to convince themselves and oth…

Software is unlike any industry we've had before. Software is now the craft of developing extensions of our minds, and it is evolving rapidly. It's easier to delegate responsibility and enforcement rights to some higher authority, but since software is so complex, a much more powerful and robust solution in the long run is to embrace personal responsibility and agency. Complex systems evolve faster without or limited…

Sounds like an excuse to behave without accountability or responsibility.

Re: Proposed Jail Time for Tech Companies Who Steal Data

#164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it is likely to have a somewhat chilling effect on the likelihood of engineers to start new companies where they as founders would be potentially prosecutable for such failures You seem to think that's a bad thing, for some reason.

Well, less competition is generally considered to be a bad thing.

Maybe the result will not be less competition but rather better competition, as the entrants will be founders who have actually done their due diligence and research and are prepared to act responsibly in compliance with the public interest.

Re: Proposed Jail Time for Tech Companies Who Steal Data

#165
post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google can afford to take as long as they want to comply, and cop the fines along the way. The startups that never get off the ground because the cost of compliance is prohibitive will mean less competition for Google etc in the long term.

I think this is nonsense - it’s only true if you believe the businesses should have existed without protecting user privacy. GDPR and such don’t require you to go out and buy any hardware, or pass through any other expensive compliance audits. PCI/DSS didn’t kill e-commerce, it just set a minimum bar for what companies SHOULD have already been doing.

You dismissed my comment as “nonsense” but then didn’t refute anything I said.

You implied it doesn’t matter if Google has less competition, and conveyed an unexamined assumption that the GDPR is the most reasonable and optimal way of assuring user privacy.

Re: Proposed Jail Time for Tech Companies Who Steal Data

#166
post #102
post #66

Looking at actual bill, it proposes: - Creating a paid "no tracking" option. Obvious failure mode: the option price is $100M, and anybody who uses it is unable to use 99% of the functionality, since it requires some form of tracking. Obvious next step - the law requiring this option to be no more than 10% more expensive than regular membership. Obvious next failure mode: inapplicable to sites that do not charge for m…

It's easy to complain, but the problem is that status quo ISN'T WORKING . That's no longer on the table. So, you either have to come up with something constructive, or someone else will.

That's called "politician's fallacy" - "something needs to be done! This is something, therefore this needs to be done!".

Obvious comment on it is that "something" must improve the situation after being done, merely doing something that doesn't work because current situation doesn't work is not likely to make it work.

And if you're implying I have to right to criticize stupid proposals from politicians before I myself am elected into political office and make a full-formed policy proposal that solves all the problems - sorry, it's not how this thing works.

Re: Proposed Jail Time for Tech Companies Who Steal Data

#167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If like me you view copyright and related laws like the DMCA as regulation, then absolutely -- all the peer-to-peer networking companies from 15 years ago were killed by regulation, not to mention companies that tried to sell circumvention tools (all killed by the DMCA). Really though, the tech industry has not yet been subject to such significant regulations. The history of the railroad industry is filled with examp…

That is a fair point about the DMCA, but doesn’t the reduction of piracy caused by both the rise of new upstart streaming services like Netflix or Steam, and the entrenched major players relenting and offering their own services and allowing their properties to be streamed, refute that legislation had a dampening effect on innovation? Not to mention, while some p2p tech companies were sued out of existence, others th…

Netflix is basically just an incremental update to the cable TV model: one centralized distribution service that negotiates broadcasting rights. The only real difference is that people are free to choose when to watch things, and even that is just an "Internet version" of the same thing people had with their VCRs (time shifting) or rental services. It is innovation, yes, but in a box that does not really change the larger business model; by way of analogy it is like railroads switching from steam engines to diesel locomotives.

Peer-to-peer is a totally different concept of global distribution, one that challenges the entire business model that is built around copyright. If Netflix is a diesel locomotive, peer-to-peer is an automobile -- it is more than just a new way to do the same thing that we had done previously, it is an entirely new concept of how things can be done. That is why the RIAA and MPAA panicked. They understand how to negotiate with or sue a centralized distributor like Netflix or Megaupload, but their entire business model is threatened by peer-to-peer distribution.

Bittorent is only half the promise of peer-to-peer. Yes, you are participating in distribution, but you still need a central service to help you find the torrents you want to download. Hardly anybody is working on distributed search, or good ways to deal with spam/malware/etc. that do not involve a central service of some kind. There was a time when people were talking about peer-to-peer messaging systems, but the death of peer-to-peer left us all relying on more centralized approaches.

Ironically, the death of peer-to-peer contributed to the rise of tech giants, all of which follow the same centralized model that peer-to-peer challenged. I think it is entirely possible that a peer-to-peer social networking system could have hindered the rise of Facebook. Youtube might never have been created if peer-to-peer had flourished. We may not have even been having this conversation if the talent that went into Google and Facebook had instead been devoted to peer-to-peer.

It is impossible to know. The problem with deliberately killing a technology in its infancy is that it is hard to know how the technology might have developed or what it might do for society. It is certainly possible (I would say likely) that consumers would have benefited from the growth of peer-to-peer technology.

Re: Proposed Jail Time for Tech Companies Who Steal Data

#168
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People might be upset about a lot of things, the question is whether you have legal ownership on the knowledge about the facts about you. Can you sue somebody for disclosing true information about you as "theft"? Is writing a Wikipedia article about you means "stealing" your life facts? Does making your photo steal your soul? I'm pretty sure the only reason to use "steal" in this context is to hopelessly confuse the…

Still it is worth thinking the effects of disclosing meta-data that a legal entity has collected about another entity (here an individual). Is it not abetting to disclose when you are away from your house and what alarm system you have to a burglar? What if you do that via wikipedia? I think even if you have no ownership of the data and stealing is not involved, that does not give the collecting or managing party the…

Disclosing certain information (like, your banking account password) would certainly harm you. But this is not the kind of information we're discussing here, are we? We are discussing kind of information that is already either public or semi-public (i.e. known to some - potentially wide - circle of unknown people) but aggregation and concentration of which may lead to knowledge about you that you'd prefer not to be public.

I am not sure we have an adequate legal model now to deal with it. We should probably get to developing one real soon. But roping in emotional terms from the different field - like calling it "stealing" or "robbery" or "piracy" or "stampeding cattle through Vatican" is not very helpful. It makes it look as if it's simple - if it's stealing, stealing is already banned, just use the same laws here - but it's not and those laws won't work. Real work is needed here, not wordplay.

Re: Proposed Jail Time for Tech Companies Who Steal Data

#169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it is likely to have a somewhat chilling effect on the likelihood of engineers to start new companies where they as founders would be potentially prosecutable for such failures You seem to think that's a bad thing, for some reason.

Perhaps some of us browsing HN, a site by a venture capital firm in the bay area, might want to consider the effects of legislation on tech startups.

Please. This forum has more people saying they just want a 9-5 job than actual founders. It’s no surprise it’s anti-startup. It’s just /r/programming+technology now.

Re: Proposed Jail Time for Tech Companies Who Steal Data

#170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is a fair point about the DMCA, but doesn’t the reduction of piracy caused by both the rise of new upstart streaming services like Netflix or Steam, and the entrenched major players relenting and offering their own services and allowing their properties to be streamed, refute that legislation had a dampening effect on innovation? Not to mention, while some p2p tech companies were sued out of existence, others th…

Netflix is basically just an incremental update to the cable TV model: one centralized distribution service that negotiates broadcasting rights. The only real difference is that people are free to choose when to watch things, and even that is just an "Internet version" of the same thing people had with their VCRs (time shifting) or rental services. It is innovation, yes, but in a box that does not really change the l…

I think you are placing too much faith in the P2P technology and overlooking the consumer side. Facebook and YouTube users don’t care about what tech is underlying their apps, so long as it is convenient and easy is use. Would Mastodon, had it existed in 2003, have beaten FB? Depends if they could have presented a better user experience. Ultimately I don’t think it’s the tech- nor regulation that supposedly suppresses the tech- that truly matters in the cases you’ve discussed. It hinges upon the UX.

It’s also doubtful that P2P withered away as in the narrative presented. It flourishes today under another under-regulated category: blockchain. And has also yet to see widespread mainstream adoption, or even very useful products, despite the lack of broad legislative oversight.

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