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Proposed Jail Time for Tech Companies Who Steal Data

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Re: Proposed Jail Time for Tech Companies Who Steal Data

#111

Post by AlexandrB »

chatmasta wrote: post #74
srkmno wrote: post #26

Pitchfork mobs dictating policy, that is why you don't elect an ex state attorney general to the legislative branch: prosecution and grandstanding is all they know. Also the principle concept of "stealing your data" is more ludicrous than "stealing" in the copyright sense; that data is meta data and it's not yours, it was generated by machines you don't own and have no claim over.

I really love the simplicity of this argument. If you generate the metadata, you own it, no questions asked.

What does "you generate the metadata" mean? If an app on my phone "generates metadata" I own it under this principle. Likewise for code running on my computer.

Re: Proposed Jail Time for Tech Companies Who Steal Data

#112

Post by bitwize »

betterunix2 wrote: post #89
Apocryphon wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Facebook is the tip of the iceberg. For every bad story about Facebook there's at least a dozen about Google, Amazon, Microsoft, Apple, Uber, AirBnB, and smaller players. Regulation designed to rein in the heavy hitters will not harm small startups, especially ones whose innovation is built upon careful flouting of law and loophole-seeking, anyway.

Except that in practice regulation nearly typically protects big incumbents from startup competitors. That is exactly the effect GDPR had in Europe: https://techcrunch.com/2018/10/09/gdpr-has-cut-ad-trackers-i... Incumbents, especially in the tech industry, face a greater threat of being unseated by a startup than being unable to handle regulations. The "heavy hitters" have plenty of cash available to pay for the law…

> Good regulation is certainly possible, but it is the exception rather than the rule. The more typical pattern is either the economic failure of an industry (over-regulation) or regulatory capture.

In the USA. It's highly unclear whether that holds for democratic regimes.

Re: Proposed Jail Time for Tech Companies Who Steal Data

#113

Post by paulddraper »

bsder wrote: post #98
tarr11 wrote: post #41

Is personal information really a kind of property, that can be stolen? If it is, aren’t we doing this all the time, any time we perceive anything about anyone? How is this different than taking a picture of someone? The image is owned by the photographer, not the subject(s) according to current laws. if I meet someone on the street, and record their name, the conversation we had, and the location where I met them, an…

> How is this different than taking a picture of someone? The image is owned by the photographer, not the subject(s) according to current laws. The photographer may own the image, but the subject may also need to sign a release for the photographer to monetize. > if I meet someone on the street, and record their name, the conversation we had, and the location where I met them, and their phone number, have I “taken th…

> What is MY recourse?

Your first statement would imply that the photographer has some responsibility to gain consent for the picture and its use.

Re: Proposed Jail Time for Tech Companies Who Steal Data

#114

Post by ggggtez »

tarr11 wrote: post #41

Is personal information really a kind of property, that can be stolen? If it is, aren’t we doing this all the time, any time we perceive anything about anyone? How is this different than taking a picture of someone? The image is owned by the photographer, not the subject(s) according to current laws. if I meet someone on the street, and record their name, the conversation we had, and the location where I met them, an…

It's already illegal to take certain kinds of photos. For example, upskirt photos or bathroom/locker room photos. The victim may never know the data was captured, but a crime still occurred.

Re: Proposed Jail Time for Tech Companies Who Steal Data

#115

Post by zahreeley »

tarr11 wrote: post #41

Is personal information really a kind of property, that can be stolen? If it is, aren’t we doing this all the time, any time we perceive anything about anyone? How is this different than taking a picture of someone? The image is owned by the photographer, not the subject(s) according to current laws. if I meet someone on the street, and record their name, the conversation we had, and the location where I met them, an…

There is something called PII. Your face is not secret.

Re: Proposed Jail Time for Tech Companies Who Steal Data

#116

Post by pfisch »

chillacy wrote: post #103
Apocryphon wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a terrifying possibility. Are there any actual case studies and examples of tech startups being killed by regulation? Or is this a campfire story that is retold whenever the possibility of regulation is mentioned.

By the time those case studies exist it'll be too late. Regulations have a way of coming into existence more than going out of existence. I don't see why we can't learn the same lessons from banking or manufacturing. An example of regulation I'm glad didn't pass: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clipper_chip

Are you saying the banking industry should be deregulated? That is not the big takeaway from history...

Re: Proposed Jail Time for Tech Companies Who Steal Data

#117

Post by 908087 »

plainOldText wrote: post #11

> ...including jail time, if their companies steal and sell user data, > or allow a massive data breach to occur at their company. What if the government loses our data? Then what? Will they go to jail too? Software is a moving target. It has become such a complex endeavor, always changing, always evolving. It's difficult to determine who's responsible for which part of the system; and by this I'm not suggesting we a…

How many more decades does the "tech" industry get to continue using the "you can't regulate us because we're new and stuff, also innovation or something" line for?

I've been working in this industry for nearly 30 years, and it wasn't even "new" when I got my start. I can't help but laugh at people who act as though it just popped up last year. Is this just a result of young kids trying to convince themselves and others that they got in on the ground floor of something that existed well before they were born?

Re: Proposed Jail Time for Tech Companies Who Steal Data

#118

Post by perfmode »

paulddraper wrote: post #104
coldtea wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is personal information really a kind of property, that can be stolen? If it is, aren’t we doing this all the time, any time we perceive anything about anyone? We are flexible and smarter than Vulcans. Something doesn't have to be necessarily expressible into a single, unambiguous universal formula to be made illegal. We can e.g. allow people to perceive things about other people in their brains (or even notebooks)…

> Something doesn't have to be necessarily expressible into a single, unambiguous universal formula to be made illegal. It doesn't have to be expressed with a precise mathematical formula, but it does need to be expressed with a clear legal formula. Otherwise, people cannot know whether or not their actions are legal, and the law becomes a fearsome weapon in the hands of its interpreters. --- EDIT: I'm not claiming i…

The law has been a fearsome weapon in the hands of its interpreters since 1776.

Stop acting like this is new.

We need to reform our broken system.

Re: Proposed Jail Time for Tech Companies Who Steal Data

#119

Post by nubbins »

paulddraper wrote: post #104
coldtea wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is personal information really a kind of property, that can be stolen? If it is, aren’t we doing this all the time, any time we perceive anything about anyone? We are flexible and smarter than Vulcans. Something doesn't have to be necessarily expressible into a single, unambiguous universal formula to be made illegal. We can e.g. allow people to perceive things about other people in their brains (or even notebooks)…

> Something doesn't have to be necessarily expressible into a single, unambiguous universal formula to be made illegal. It doesn't have to be expressed with a precise mathematical formula, but it does need to be expressed with a clear legal formula. Otherwise, people cannot know whether or not their actions are legal, and the law becomes a fearsome weapon in the hands of its interpreters. --- EDIT: I'm not claiming i…

Its just not possible in general to know a priori the legality of 100% of your actions. Companies have entire compliance departments to attempt this and still cant always get it right. There are tons of grey areas and edge cases so what actually happens is the relevant authorities and advocates get together after the fact to figure out the legality. I don’t know how anyone would propose to write a legal code that covers 100% of circumstances and doesn’t need human interpretaion but I feel like it it would be akin to the problem of general AI.

Re: Proposed Jail Time for Tech Companies Who Steal Data

#120

Post by plainOldText »

908087 wrote: post #117
plainOldText wrote: post #11

> ...including jail time, if their companies steal and sell user data, > or allow a massive data breach to occur at their company. What if the government loses our data? Then what? Will they go to jail too? Software is a moving target. It has become such a complex endeavor, always changing, always evolving. It's difficult to determine who's responsible for which part of the system; and by this I'm not suggesting we a…

How many more decades does the "tech" industry get to continue using the "you can't regulate us because we're new and stuff, also innovation or something" line for? I've been working in this industry for nearly 30 years, and it wasn't even "new" when I got my start. I can't help but laugh at people who act as though it just popped up last year. Is this just a result of young kids trying to convince themselves and oth…

Software is unlike any industry we've had before. Software is now the craft of developing extensions of our minds, and it is evolving rapidly.

It's easier to delegate responsibility and enforcement rights to some higher authority, but since software is so complex, a much more powerful and robust solution in the long run is to embrace personal responsibility and agency. Complex systems evolve faster without or limited centralized control.

For example, the cryptocurrency space is already providing us with a playground where we can experiment with the next generation social systems. But like I've mentioned earlier, we're just beginning to scratch the surface and no one truly knows what will come next. But the beauty of it, is that we have the freedom to thinker, and figure out what works best.

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